Damn Brakes?!

[growler2058]

Ok have bled n bled again but still something's up. Am NOT getting air out when bleeding so presume that sides good. But I gotta give a pump or two for the backs to work. The front will lock up with the first application of the pedal if braking suddenly (scarey sh1t I tell ya) but the backs just don't seem to come on till they get that pump! If I'm stopped and put my foot down it's soft and has a fair bit of travel give a pump and firms right up feels good. But leave ya foot on and slowly the pedal goes down? I'm not loosing fluid. Is the master cylinder stuffed! It feels like there's a bypass effect when ya hold it down. Could it be the proportioning valve? I dunno I've bled over and over and as I said not air coming out, so open to suggestion, cheers

[97_gq_lwb]

Leave it overnight and try again tomorrow lol it sometimes works.

[growler2058]

HAHAHAHHA cheers been trying that over the last two weeks ;-)

[Ben-e-boy]

sound like your master cylinder has sh1t a seal

[97_gq_lwb]

Ah ok where did it all start.
I know they are a two part master cylinder basically the rear and front are on different pistons basically and sometimes if their isn't enough freeplay in the shaft for the piston to return you'll never bleed them.

[pearcey]

Gowlers the master cyl is bypassing just replace the master and you`ll be right
A new master is much better than rebuilding the old one. If you hone the old cyl it removes a coating from the bore a you trouble may soon be back

[growler2058]

Gowlers the master cyl is bypassing just replace the master and you`ll be right
A new master is much better than rebuilding the old one. If you hone the old cyl it removes a coating from the bore a you trouble may soon be back

That was to be the next Q? to rebuild or replace...........Replace it is cheers.

[Killametre]

Ok so if you want to narrow it down you could clamp off the front and rear flex lines to the diff's with vice grips and try the pedal then it should be hard and have no travel. If that is the case the problem is further on (calipers,air,lwobbly disc/wheel brg) if that is not the case the fault is in your master cyl (or air) if the aportioning valve is not leaking externaly i would be surprised if you have a problem there. Sounds most likely to be a master cyl problem but I like to diagnose properly so you dont waste money replacing servicable parts which happens so often.

[97_gq_lwb]

I'll ask again what made you bleed the brakes in the first place ?.
A common problem is a leaky rear left cylinder.
why is it always the left side that goes on a gq axel seals hub seals always seems to be the left side.

[growler2058]

I'll ask again what made you bleed the brakes in the first place ?.
A common problem is a leaky rear left cylinder.
why is it always the left side that goes on a gq axel seals hub seals always seems to be the left side.

Got it in 1
Got spongey after last trip to Loveday and twas p155in fluid out

[Sir Roofy]

Got it in 1
Got spongey after last trip to Loveday and twas p155in fluid out

was going to say that lol that dreaded sticky goo just look at the pickright bottom

[97_gq_lwb]

Ah ok did you have the engine running whilst trying to bleed the brakes that helps.
I also find using different methods on some things just lightly pushing the brake pedal not pushing it all the way down a few times before cracking the nipple can work.
But i bought a vacuum bleeder best thing i ever did saves a lot of dramas except for the gq clutch that was a bastard of a thing i had to pump it to get it in gear for a week before it finally bled itself.

[growler2058]

Ah ok did you have the engine running whilst trying to bleed the brakes that helps.
I also find using different methods on some things just lightly pushing the brake pedal not pushing it all the way down a few times before cracking the nipple can work.
But i bought a vacuum bleeder best thing i ever did saves a lot of dramas except for the gq clutch that was a bastard of a thing i had to pump it to get it in gear for a week before it finally bled itself.

Yeah even tried that hahahahhaaha. My clutch was a bastard as well until i did it my way "pumped like all get out with the nipple open then held down closed nipple vwallah" :-)

[Sir Roofy]

Yeah even tried that hahahahhaaha. My clutch was a bastard as well until i did it my way "pumped like all get out with the nipple open then held down closed nipple vwallah" :-)

i guess your using a bottle and hose to bleed with stops the air being sucked up again

[growler2058]

i guess your using a bottle and hose to bleed with stops the air being sucked up again

Yeah and then the hose slips out and splashes me in the eyes and face hahahahahaha, driveways got a bit of a squirt also hahahhaha, but not the lawn ;-)

[Sir Roofy]

Yeah and then the hose slips out and splashes me in the eyes and face hahahahahaha, driveways got a bit of a squirt also hahahhaha, but not the lawn ;-)

NO NOT THE DREADED LAWN stay away from there pml

[growler2058]

NO NOT THE DREADED LAWN stay away from there pml

Its nearly all over for the poor ol lawn hahahahaha got about 3cubic mtrs of Loveday on it now hahahahahahahaha that the green stuff is trying to push through.

[Sir Roofy]

Its nearly all over for the poor ol lawn hahahahaha got about 3cubic mtrs of Loveday on it now hahahahahahahaha that the green stuff is trying to push through.

when it does come thruogh it will be tough as nails mate and kill the blades on your mower
it will have grit and car parts bred into it BEWARE THE KILLER LAWN PML

[growler2058]

I havent had much time at home lately so got Gezza AKA crooza dude to do it for me......................with his mower hahahahahahahhahaaha dog eggs n all, it was long enough to loose a kid in.

[Sir Roofy]

i havent had much time at home lately so got gezza aka crooza dude to do it for me......................with his mower hahahahahahahhahaaha dog eggs n all, it was long enough to loose a kid in.

dont loose the kids the yummy mummys get cranky if you do ,dont know why

[growler2058]

dont loose the kids the yummy mummys get cranky if you do ,dont know why

Tell ya what the things that get thrown out by the mower toys dog bones balls you name it

[Silver]

I'll ask again what made you bleed the brakes in the first place ?.
A common problem is a leaky rear left cylinder.
why is it always the left side that goes on a gq axel seals hub seals always seems to be the left side.

Don't know about the wheel cylinder, except that maybe it is furthest from the master cylinder - why that should make a difference...... Re the axle seal, a mechanic mate of mine pointed out a few years ago that the left hand side suspension works hardest as the left hand side usually has more pot holes, gutters and other dramas. So, the bearings work harder, and then the seals?

[Silver]

Tell ya what the things that get thrown out by the mower toys dog bones balls you name it

Bob and Doreen over the road have a mango tree. A huge one, now. Flying foxes like the mangos greener than I do.

Anyhoo, one time they went on holidays for ages, and being a good neighbour, I mowed their lawn.

It didn't take me too long to set the height just a bit taller than the height of the mango seeds. I can cope with rotten mango pulp making my double pluggers slippery, but the seeds are a different matter :-)

Almost as bad as palm nuts/dates machine gunning the shins :-)

[growler2058]

Bob and Doreen over the road have a mango tree. A huge one, now. Flying foxes like the mangos greener than I do.

Anyhoo, one time they went on holidays for ages, and being a good neighbour, I mowed their lawn.

It didn't take me too long to set the height just a bit taller than the height of the mango seeds. I can cope with rotten mango pulp making my double pluggers slippery, but the seeds are a different matter :-)

Almost as bad as palm nuts/dates machine gunning the shins :-)

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA used to do Jims Mowing and have been smashed by all sorts hahahhahaa

[Morton]

so the problem is fixed now? just better bleeding method required?

[growler2058]

so the problem is fixed now? just better bleeding method required?

Nup will be replacing the master cylinder this week


Tapp tillya Crap

[97_gq_lwb]

Did you try opening up the front bleed nipples and starting from the rear left and working your way forward lol.
I honestly can't see it being a master cylinder if you pump it and they work .
and that they were working before doing a slave cylinder it just doesn't do it for me .

[macca]

When I had mine serviced the mechanic said something about the proportioning valve was set wrong. The spring was loose, with no tension on it at all.
When pressure is applied to the pedal the valve moves and allows fluid to bypass it. The spring on it to allow this to happen.
The pedal does slowly head to the floor when this happens.
What we did was loosen the "arm bolts", there are 2 of them. One is slotted allowing it to adjust.
Adjust it to the maximum spring tension and go for a test drive. If that improves your situation then adjust the arm to where you want your brakes to be.
He said the fronts should lock and the rears just start to lock up on a gravel surface.
Mine are a hell of a lot better now, they were like you discribed before.
Hope its a cheap fix for you, Macca.

[growler2058]

If i crack the front and bleed from the back wont that suck air in from the front while im bleeding the back?
They were working after origionally changing the slaves.
If stationary and "pump" they come up but if you leave your foot on the brake it will go down again thats where it feels like its bypassing somewhere ie stuffed Master?

[growler2058]

When I had mine serviced the mechanic said something about the proportioning valve was set wrong. The spring was loose, with no tension on it at all.
When pressure is applied to the pedal the valve moves and allows fluid to bypass it. The spring on it to allow this to happen.
The pedal does slowly head to the floor when this happens.
What we did was loosen the "arm bolts", there are 2 of them. One is slotted allowing it to adjust.
Adjust it to the maximum spring tension and go for a test drive. If that improves your situation then adjust the arm to where you want your brakes to be.
He said the fronts should lock and the rears just start to lock up on a gravel surface.
Mine are a hell of a lot better now, they were like you discribed before.
Hope its a cheap fix for you, Macca.

Was this the bracket on the rear diff macca?

[macca]

Yes mate thats the one.

[97_gq_lwb]

Yeah but when your bleeding them the pedal isn't going to the floor is it ?
that would be because because of the front brakes.
I reckon you might still have air in it and you can't bleed it out due to the front brakes pressure not letting the pedal go down far enough.

[growler2058]

Just snapped the bleed nipple off the proportioning valve Frok it!!

[growler2058]

Yeah but when your bleeding them the pedal isn't going to the floor is it ?
that would be because because of the front brakes.
I reckon you might still have air in it and you can't bleed it out due to the front brakes pressure not letting the pedal go down far enough.

Ive bled the fronts as well and didnt have any air in them either?

[97_gq_lwb]

lol having fun yet.
When you bleed the brakes though you work from the farthest point towards the master cylinder.
So in theory the front had no air but they were not allowing the pedal to go to the floor.
Wich will make it near impossible to bleed the rear as the pedal isn't going all the way down due to the pressure in the front .

Makes sense to me anyway .

[growler2058]

Doing my frockin head in thinking about it hahahahahhaha



Tapp tillya Crap

[macca]

End up having any luck Growler?

[growler2058]

Nah mate moved it like ya said, then snapped the bleed nipple off the proportioning valve, then the battery died looks like a stuffed alternator, went and got a charger sat down had a beer and cussed at it hahahahahahahahahaha

[macca]

Beer is good Cussing works good too!!!!

[Morton]

ok I went through this same s**tfight for 2 weeks, I bleed everything forwards, backwards & every other way possible, tried all different ways to get my brakes to work, you have the exact same issue as me & am recently to find out heaps of other people, what I did recently fixed 4 GQ's since, I was unable to get any brakes to lock up on dirt. I had bought it late last year & was having brake issues from day one

WHAT I FOUND WAS

the front left caliper nipple was leaking, taped it & it was fixed, front right caliper was partially seized, rebuilt one out of 2, fixed that problem, no air in the master cylinder by pressing the pedal with the top off. Now the real tricky stuff started, I could not get the rear brakes to work at all for any reason, I took the drums off to inspect & found they self adjusted ok, could hear it clicking on every depression of the pedal, I backed off the shoes to get the drums back on, pushed hard on the pedal to get the shoes self-adjusted into place & whilst no wheels where on I adjusted up the rear brakes till I could hear them scraping, I then bleed the system through, yet again no air found, I instantly got better pedal & a little better brakes, I then went on dirt & hit the pedal hard, I was able to pull up better but not great, I then used a plastic cable-tie & tensioned up the rear proportioning valve 'spring' (fitted from proportioning valve to a plate on the top of the diff), I tensioned this up appx 10%, took it for a run brakes improved, I then did it to appx 30%, massive improvement, car finally stopped on a dime, pedal was very nice & good feel to it, I have sinced backed it off to about 20% using a cable-tie for now till I can find the right spring to fit, as mine is lifted 6" I will be looking for a while.

[growler2058]

ok I went through this same s**tfight for 2 weeks, I bleed everything forwards, backwards & every other way possible, tried all different ways to get my brakes to work, you have the exact same issue as me & am recently to find out heaps of other people, what I did recently fixed 4 GQ's since, I was unable to get any brakes to lock up on dirt. I had bought it late last year & was having brake issues from day one

WHAT I FOUND WAS

the front left caliper nipple was leaking, taped it & it was fixed, front right caliper was partially seized, rebuilt one out of 2, fixed that problem, no air in the master cylinder by pressing the pedal with the top off. Now the real tricky stuff started, I could not get the rear brakes to work at all for any reason, I took the drums off to inspect & found they self adjusted ok, could hear it clicking on every depression of the pedal, I backed off the shoes to get the drums back on, pushed hard on the pedal to get the shoes self-adjusted into place & whilst no wheels where on I adjusted up the rear brakes till I could hear them scraping, I then bleed the system through, yet again no air found, I instantly got better pedal & a little better brakes, I then went on dirt & hit the pedal hard, I was able to pull up better but not great, I then used a plastic cable-tie & tensioned up the rear proportioning valve 'spring' (fitted from proportioning valve to a plate on the top of the diff), I tensioned this up appx 10%, took it for a run brakes improved, I then did it to appx 30%, massive improvement, car finally stopped on a dime, pedal was very nice & good feel to it, I have sinced backed it off to about 20% using a cable-tie for now till I can find the right spring to fit, as mine is lifted 6" I will be looking for a while.

Cheers more to look at and do my head in! ive never had so much dramas getting brakes to work!

[nissannewby]

I took the limiting bolt out of mine and put a longer bolt in its place with 2 nuts on it (proportioning valve) then adjusted to suit my likes then lock the nuts up and all good :)

[bazzad]

Ok here is another thought for you. (better get a beer) What fluid are you using. Dot 3 or Dot 4. This is where it can get interesting. If you use dot 4 instead of dot 3 it can make it feel spongey on the pedal. I know all the books say that the dot 4 supersedes the dot 3 and it will work but experience tells me that there is a difference with these two products. The toyotas at work have brake dramas all the time and feel spongey. We started going back to the dot 3 and the pedal feels alot better. Can't really explain why but we seem to think the rubber seals go a bit soft.
Not saying it happens to all cars but it can make a difference.
Good luck sounds like you need it.
Bazzad

[Robo]

X2 on dot fluid 3 or 4 use correct spec.
X2, LSV needs to adjusted properly.
A spring that has been set in a tensioned position say 5-20 yrs ago isn't likely to be doing its job.
So maybe a replacement is on the cards, and or reset , what ever tickles your fancy!!.
I had the LSV problem on a 97 lancer, wasn't using rear brakes at all.
checked brakes, 2nd owner 5 yrs old and barely no wear on linings "Struth".
And Mav wasn't the best rear brakes when I got it either.
So I recon LSV can be a problem no matter how old the vehicle.
I know most of us know this stuff, but maybe someone doesn't, so here goes.

Bleed procedure order as per manual.
point 1 to 5 in this exact order.
1) Load Sensing Valve.
2) Left Rear.
3) Right Rear.
4) Left Front.
5) Right Front.

Manual procedure as follows.
Fill reservoir with recommended fluid.
"( My Manual 93 Maverick, dot 3 )" .
Make sure it is full at all times while bleeding air from system.
Carefully monitor brake fluid level at master cyl during bleeding.

1 Connect clear vinyl tube to air bleed valve.
2 Fully depress pedal several times.
3 With pedal depressed open bleed valve to release air.
4 Close air bleed valve.
5 Release brake pedal slowly.
6 Repeat steps 2 to 5 untill clear brake fluid, free of air bubbles comes out of bleeder.

And hopefully Cheers

[growler2058]

X2 on dot fluid 3 or 4 use correct spec.
X2, LSV needs to adjusted properly.
A spring that has been set in a tensioned position say 5-20 yrs ago isn't likely to be doing its job.
So maybe a replacement is on the cards, and or reset , what ever tickles your fancy!!.
I had the LSV problem on a 97 lancer, wasn't using rear brakes at all.
checked brakes, 2nd owner 5 yrs old and barely no wear on linings "Struth".
And Mav wasn't the best rear brakes when I got it either.
So I recon LSV can be a problem no matter how old the vehicle.
I know most of us know this stuff, but maybe someone doesn't, so here goes.

Bleed procedure order as per manual.
point 1 to 5 in this exact order.
1) Load Sensing Valve.
2) Left Rear.
3) Right Rear.
4) Left Front.
5) Right Front.

Manual procedure as follows.
Fill reservoir with recommended fluid.
"( My Manual 93 Maverick, dot 3 )" .
Make sure it is full at all times while bleeding air from system.
Carefully monitor brake fluid level at master cyl during bleeding.

1 Connect clear vinyl tube to air bleed valve.
2 Fully depress pedal several times.
3 With pedal depressed open bleed valve to release air.
4 Close air bleed valve.
5 Release brake pedal slowly.
6 Repeat steps 2 to 5 untill clear brake fluid, free of air bubbles comes out of bleeder.

And hopefully Cheers

MMMMmmm slight problem ive got is the bloody bleed nipple snapped off yesterday when i tried to undo it @#$%!!! Havent been able to find one on evil bay either, and dont like me chances of tapping it out successfully either!

[taslucas]

From bad to worse!! Poor bugger!

Tap, crackle, pop

[growler2058]

From bad to worse!! Poor bugger!

Tap, crackle, pop

Have a look what im about to post in the Auto elec forum sheesh gimme 5 mins ;-0

[Lieney]

Growlers71gq.
I am not sure if GQ have drum brakes on the rear end but the distance of the shoes to the drum is definately something that should be considered (if they have drum on rear). If not, disregard this part.
Disc brakes should apply with minimal travel. Unless wheel bearings are not adjusted correctly, or discs are rooted causing the pads to move out.
If the pedal sinks after a rapid push, and very slight release, and there are no leaks evident outside the system, the master cylinder piston seals are most likely knackered.
This will cause fluid to travel between front and rear circuits within the master cylinder.
Rebuilt m/cylinders with stainless sleeves are good if bought at the right price.
Honing yours and installing a new kit will be fine depending on the internal surface of the bore prior to the hone.
Clean with water and a clean cloth.
Do not get mineral oils etc anywhere near brake system as this will cause massive trouble.

[Morton]

I took the limiting bolt out of mine and put a longer bolt in its place with 2 nuts on it (proportioning valve) then adjusted to suit my likes then lock the nuts up and all good :)

Bloody great idea, now on my 'to do' list, I am assuming you flicked the spring after that?

[growler2058]

Growlers71gq.
I am not sure if GQ have drum brakes on the rear end but the distance of the shoes to the drum is definately something that should be considered (if they have drum on rear). If not, disregard this part.
Disc brakes should apply with minimal travel. Unless wheel bearings are not adjusted correctly, or discs are rooted causing the pads to move out.
If the pedal sinks after a rapid push, and very slight release, and there are no leaks evident outside the system, the master cylinder piston seals are most likely knackered.
This will cause fluid to travel between front and rear circuits within the master cylinder.
Rebuilt m/cylinders with stainless sleeves are good if bought at the right price.
Honing yours and installing a new kit will be fine depending on the internal surface of the bore prior to the hone.
Clean with water and a clean cloth.
Do not get mineral oils etc anywhere near brake system as this will cause massive trouble.

Cheers Liney. They're meant to be self adjusting but I think I may need to check that and wind em up further (yep drum rear)


Tapp tillya Crap

[Robo]

MMMMmmm slight problem ive got is the bloody bleed nipple snapped off yesterday when i tried to undo it @#$%!!! Havent been able to find one on evil bay either, and dont like me chances of tapping it out successfully either!
Hummmmmmmm thinking thinkings....

Try a Easy out, growlers, if ya can find 1 small enough
Have you tried some freeze spray stuff at all.
Might be worth a try, couple of hits with this stuff and leave a few hours to penetrate.
or try hot water poured over can free things to sometimes.
or all, hot and freeze and easy out.

Maybe small die grinder and cut slot for a screwdriver to screw it out.
if ya can loosen it with heat and cold lube spray.
this method worked for me once yrs ago.
but it took some time, alot of cycling of heat and cold to shock loosen.

cheers

[growler2058]

Yeah it's snapped off under the surface if ya know what I mean. It may be off to the wreckers to find another proportioning valve


Tapp tillya Crap

[Silver]

can you crack one of the pipe fittings and bleed it that way?

[growler2058]

can you crack one of the pipe fittings and bleed it that way?

My thoughts precisely, ill give that a go first before i go pulling more apart :-) otherwise i may have to spit it and buy a GU.....................................joking

[Bob]

My thoughts precisely, ill give that a go first before i go pulling more apart :-) otherwise i may have to spit it and buy a GU.....................................joking

Now you are talking Growlers LOL

[growler2058]

Who wrote that ;-)


Tapp tillya Crap

[taslucas]

My thoughts precisely, ill give that a go first before i go pulling more apart :-) otherwise i may have to spit it and buy a GU.....................................joking

Yeah get a 2.8 GU and you won't need brakes-...................they don't go fast enough!!

Tap, crackle, pop

[Robo]

This is like a tennis rally.
each shot better than the last. lmao

[97_gq_lwb]

I when i break off something like that i usually find a nut with a similar inside diameter and weld it on.
The heat helps it come undone.
Or if it's hollow like that sometimes hammering a tight fitting hex or torx bit into it then undoing it works.

I can't believe it works lol check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVV51gyoPU&feature=related
No good to you now but for future brake problems lol.

[Morton]

throw another one on & fix the other later if you could be bothered

[Robo]

I when i break off something like that i usually find a nut with a similar inside diameter and weld it on.
The heat helps it come undone.
Or if it's hollow like that sometimes hammering a tight fitting hex or torx bit into it then undoing it works.

I can't believe it works lol check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVV51gyoPU&feature=related
No good to you now but for future brake problems lol.

Not a bad idea, air chisel adapted to a socket to loosen a fitting.
Cant see how its worth $40+, as air chisel with tools can cost as little as $40 these days.
But after breaking a bleeder off, frustration alone is ##2%%^&, sorry growlers.
Have a air chisel may see if I can find an adapter to keep for next frozen item.