Timing adjusted itself.....??... MYSTERY..

[4by]

Ok, so I've just finished working on my patrol again........ This is what happened earlier..

The trol was going well no sign of problems. 4.5 dual fuel. I went to start the trol it made a grinding bang sound... wtf?? ... It did the same thing after a few times. Quite loud. After a few more goes it cranked over then went bang and stopped cranking.... Seemed like compression lock up..... At this stage I was rather concerned as I never ever had or heard this before.
I walked away and pondered for a while on the problem and how to get it going. After 10 or so min I thought Id give it one more go before i crack it..... Cranked it and it started....it was running like crap.
I thought I'd check the timing. The dizzy wasn't loose but the timing changed from my original setting. I always set the timing to about 7.5 deg before tdc and it was on about 13 or 14 btdc. I don't get it. How does the timing change by itself. I have an ecutalk all set to normal but surely this can't be the cause.
So if the timing was out this much the engine was locking up and not firing. It seem to kick backwards. Does this sound right???

How can the timing change itself from original setting on the harmonic balancer??? How do I stop this from happening again as I'm rather concerned.... .???

[BearGUST]

I'm not familiar with the timing marks on those engines, is it possible for the timing mark to move?
Holden red motors have a two-piece balancer and the outer is prone to slipping...

[4by]

Yeah I remember something about that with the red motors bear..... Showin my age he he.
Haven't heard that being a problem with these motors. Perhaps someone else knows different and can shed some light on it.

[4by]

So to be sure I'm going it right. To adjust the timing I unplug the throttle position sensor plugs, adjusts the timing using a light with a warm engine by moving the distributor and reconnect the tps plugs. Correct?
So there are no pins to short out on the ecu etc??

[Robo]

faulty tps maybe ?.
you should be able to multi metre test tps, 1 would think.
dizzy jamming advanced
I personally had that happen in a nissan of all cars.
shame, shame.
bearings between advance plates had made there own little holes to jamb in.

when I was a lad lol, harmonic balancer were exchange units it was that common

[Robo]

What did you find ?.

[4by]

Hey Robo, I have an ecutalk reads the tps to be correct. I did a manual check (multimeter) as per book and seemed to be correct. I readjusted the timing and it seems to run ok. Just concerned it might happen again and leave me stranded.

When you mention advance plates had made holes where would this be located? Part of the dizzy? (sorry, my mechanical knowledge isn't 100%)

[Robo]

Yes, inside dizzy there is a sandwich-plate set up that allows the timing to move.
I have not pulled your dizzy apart , but if you remove cap, rotor and cover plate if it has a plate also, you should be able to see, even move the plates a bit by hand.
It may not even be the traditional plate design setup, but a setup none the less that will allow some rotation.
It should be a smooth rotation, both ways.
If not then there's your problem.
Off the top of my head, I don't know the exact set up of your dizzy , there could also be something else sticking.
but not sure of design.

On my/wife's 4.2 its a fair design to keep dirt out and guess your's will be the same good design.
but this does not stop mechanical wear and tear.
the heat can even cause lube to dry out .
and gravity to allow lube to drain away also.
When/before I put pertronic in my dizzy, I used a good spray of, lithium spray grease, ( with the extension tube ) to re-lube it as a maint measure.
touchwood all good so far, that was over 2 yrs now.
Hope this helps.

[Robo]

Hey Robo, I have an ecutalk reads the tps to be correct. I did a manual check (multimeter) as per book and seemed to be correct. I readjusted the timing and it seems to run ok. Just concerned it might happen again and leave me stranded.

When you mention advance plates had made holes where would this be located? Part of the dizzy? (sorry, my mechanical knowledge isn't 100%)

when you did this check did you try and find any dead spots while moving the acl peddel?.

[4by]

Yes, inside dizzy there is a sandwich-plate set up that allows the timing to move.
I have not pulled your dizzy apart , but if you remove cap, rotor and cover plate if it has a plate also, you should be able to see, even move the plates a bit by hand.
It may not even be the traditional plate design setup, but a setup none the less that will allow some rotation.
It should be a smooth rotation, both ways.
If not then there's your problem.
Off the top of my head, I don't know the exact set up of your dizzy , there could also be something else sticking.
but not sure of design.

On my/wife's 4.2 its a fair design to keep dirt out and guess your's will be the same good design.
but this does not stop mechanical wear and tear.
the heat can even cause lube to dry out .
and gravity to allow lube to drain away also.
When/before I put pertronic in my dizzy, I used a good spray of, lithium spray grease, ( with the extension tube ) to re-lube it as a maint measure.
touchwood all good so far, that was over 2 yrs now.
Hope this helps.

Yes, I remember when I removed the dizzy cover to check for cracks there was a black plate below the rotor button. 2 screws I think held it on, but I didn't remove it. I thought there would be nothing under there significant to check. I'll pull it apart again and have another look and give it a spray.

Didn't seem to be any dead / flat spots. It accelerates smoothly. I do have an engine miss due to a cracked or bad injector seal around no 6. (another problem I have to fix) If I push on injector 6 the engine runs smooth, if I push the other way it shakes. I've removed the rail and injectors to replace the O rings, but now I find the injector filters are damaged and need replacing. Can't seem to buy these filters so Ill have to buy second hand injectors or perhaps order new injectors from China. What a pain...... (Sorry for the long story, I only just bought the car and it's spent more time getting repaired than being driven.... all great fun.. :)

[Robo]

all good .
go for as long as ya like I dont mind.
did ya try swapping no1 injector and 6 around

[4by]

Ha, funny you say that Robo, that was my plan exactly. Swap 1 and 6 and check again for the fault.
Until I removed the injector I found the basket filter has worn away. I rang a few places and it's not available. Even Nissan said they don't have it showing on file. I was just going to put them back in and not worry about it but an injector place said I should replace the broken filters. So, I can get second hand injectors (with filters) from a wrecker for $25.00. I'll replace the broken ones, clean the good filters and go from there.

[Robo]

dont hold me to this but it but.
I'd swear someone told me you can get these screens, or I'd seen em some where.
Nissan head office, have made the choice to only sell complete injector I recon, could be wrong.
It kinda makes sense from their point of view I guess.

So forgetting that, what the heck happened to the stainless filter, inside injector causing you trouble?.
These thing don't disappear by them selves!!. very strange.

[4by]

The filter is on the outside Robo. Apparently they call it a side injector I think. I don't have a photo but this link is the same... http://gzhaoxiang.en.alibaba.com/product/428193621-209378591/NISSAN_Fuel_Injector_Nozzle_16600_38Y10_JS23_1.htm l

The filter is on the outside between the black sections.... so to speak.. Once you see the pic it'll make sense.. Let me know if the link doesn't work. Basically I just googled JS23-1 and its the first link.

Cheers Rob.. :)

[97_gq_lwb]

An injector service kit like the link below should have the filter
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nissan-Jecs-Side-Feed-Fuel-Injector-Service-Kit-4-Cyl-/360294765488?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53e33dd3b0

LOL just had another look they don't

[4by]

An injector service kit like the link below should have the filter
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nissan-Jecs-Side-Feed-Fuel-Injector-Service-Kit-4-Cyl-/360294765488?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53e33dd3b0

LOL just had another look they don't

Thanks for the info. I might send them a message. If they don't have any they might know someone who does.

[4by]

An injector service kit like the link below should have the filter
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nissan-Jecs-Side-Feed-Fuel-Injector-Service-Kit-4-Cyl-/360294765488?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53e33dd3b0

LOL just had another look they don't

Received an email back from these guys and they can get the filter baskets and o rings for the injectors and ship them to Aus. Good news.... :)

[Robo]

Don't ya just love this place.
ask and someone can usually help out.

[4by]

Strange that I have to order these from Idaho USA, 13,500ks away. Being such a popular vehicle I thought it would be easier to get them locally.

The missing mesh on the filter must have dissolved away. It couldn't get sucked into the engine because it couldn't get passed the O rings and injector seals. I read that apparently some injector cleaning products that goes into fuel tanks can eat away the filters. I wonder how many other engines out there with damaged injector filters. It was recommended to replace these even though the fuel filter should collect most rubbish.

I suppose not many people would pull these apart to check them unless there is a fault. What's the saying..... If it aint broke don't fix it... :)

These are the injectors for a TB45E. Model JS23-1.

[4by]

Yes, inside dizzy there is a sandwich-plate set up that allows the timing to move.
I have not pulled your dizzy apart , but if you remove cap, rotor and cover plate if it has a plate also, you should be able to see, even move the plates a bit by hand.
It may not even be the traditional plate design setup, but a setup none the less that will allow some rotation.
It should be a smooth rotation, both ways.
If not then there's your problem.
Off the top of my head, I don't know the exact set up of your dizzy , there could also be something else sticking.
but not sure of design.

On my/wife's 4.2 its a fair design to keep dirt out and guess your's will be the same good design.
but this does not stop mechanical wear and tear.
the heat can even cause lube to dry out .
and gravity to allow lube to drain away also.
When/before I put pertronic in my dizzy, I used a good spray of, lithium spray grease, ( with the extension tube ) to re-lube it as a maint measure.
touchwood all good so far, that was over 2 yrs now.
Hope this helps.

I'll try and pull the dizzy out tonight Robo and check what the go is. I'll mark it and make sure it all goes back in correctly. Hopefully something easy to fix. Thanks for the help on this. Rob.

[Robo]

Don't ya just love this place.
Ask and someone can usually help out.
Sorry I had not played with your engine so didn't realise you had side feed type.
this is what threw me, and also for how I explained cleaning injector by hand method.
:icon_bonk:

Hope you can simply fix buy replace filter and its not in the loom.
you are going to move 1 and 6 around still?.
might be the go still.
incase its the injector after all.
The ebay link is good info to have for tracking down bits and prices are excellent.
If your prices are similar its worth getting a set of filters and all seals incase.

anyway hop it turns out well for you.
Cheers

[4by]

Yeah thanks Robo.
Im going to order a full set of 6 filters $10 each and O rings for $35. I might even get them cleaned while there out, only $20 each. Although I run LPG as well so not a major drama there.
It'll take a few weeks to get here so in the mean time I'll swap 1 and 6 over and take it for a run to check what the go is.

PS The shake happens on both petrol and LPG when I push injector 6 so therefore I guess its an air leak at No 6. If running on LPG the injectors would't be working so that's how I came to the conclusion it must be an air leak. Either that or a crack in the injector / fuel rail but I can't see anything obvious.

Just a process of elimination and not to get frustrated.....

[Robo]

May I suggest you add Morreys upper cyl lube to you petrol tank.
to help maintain a clean fuel system.
you really want those injectors to work properly when you switch over or run out of LP.

[4by]

Just fitted the upper cylinder kit with that stuff. Previous owner didn't have it and I was surprised how smooth it was on petrol. No surging or anything. He said he ran a tank of petrol every so often.

Let you know how I go with the dizzy.... :)

[Robo]

Just fitted the upper cylinder kit with that stuff. Previous owner didn't have it and I was surprised how smooth it was on petrol. No surging or anything. He said he ran a tank of petrol every so often.

Let you know how I go with the dizzy.... :)

Yeah good idea for gas.
You can also add a little direct to the petrol tank next time you fill up.
Morreys have cleaner product built in as well as lube qualities.
Problems accure with leaving fuel in injectors for extended periods.
Gumming up and deposits sticking etc.
The princable idea, Morreys should help minimise this trouble.

Penrite is a good lube but does not have cleaner built in, had no engine trouble with this, but returned to Morreys for cleaner additive.
Only used Penrite for a short period, can't really say 1 way or the other for sure.
I spoke with Penrite tech man, he gave me that information for no cleaning additives in their product.

Hate flaslube caused bad ping in a sound engine.
Fuel doctor returned worse fuel ecc, 3lt worse per 100k.
Cheers

[4by]

Update.... Until my new o rings and injector filters arrive from USA I replaced the bottom o rings and swapped over injector 1 and 6. The old o rings were worn and looked very sad. I didn't pull out any of the other injectors and decided to do this when the new parts arrive. Overall the vehicle idled smoother, and seems to start a lot easier. The potrol is a lot happier.
Bought a new o2 sensor which I'll try and replace over the weekend and check out the timing.
So far fingers crossed so good... Thanks for your input and help.. :biggrin:

[Robo]

The o2 sensor.
might pay to use anti-seize on new 1.
as you have probably just found out.
old one was a pain to get out hey.

[4by]

He he..... Hard to get out is an understatement...... I'm still trying and already broke a spanner. Next ill try to get some heat into it with a flame and give it another go. Not to mention its on extractors and not a lot of leaverage room. Fingers crossed I don't rip my knuckles open......

[Robo]

you can get special tool for this.
but don't know if it would fit yours.

once you do get it.
work into the thread fair amount of antiseize, to ensure full coverage of thread.
I ve done this with exh stud nuts and twin sensors on my GTR as heat is a plenty.
and seized ie a real problem in these areas as we know.
It does work, but don't know how long it will last.