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Thread: What did you do to your Patrol today!

  1. #9321
    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeBee View Post

    What is also necessary to mention is that the alternator may be rated at 300amps, however its output is ramped up against the load, so for example, I had the car addling in the driveway this afternoon and it was outputting 12 amps. I checked with with another identical meter and a dc tong tester, and then when a load is applied to the system, such as headlights, high beams and one light bar the ammeter showed a charge rate of 35 amps. I expect my nominal amp draw to be around the 60 - 70 amps with everything running, fridge, headlights , a/c driving lights. What will happen then is the alternator has plenty of capacity to then idle away this load. Having the additional rectifiers on board keeps the heat load down per rectifier, hence their efficiency is increased, as is their life. It will be interesting to se how it performs under a winching load.
    So are you saying that the alternator has some sort of 'smarts' built in? If so it sounds like a good thing & my concern is unwarranted.

    However if the current input into the batteries relies upon the batteries internal resistance I am still confused. I know batteries will increase resistance as they become more fully charged (hence the reason alternators cannot generally charge a battery above around 80% & the need for smart chargers to take SoC up to 100% within a practical timeframe). However when below that resistance induced barrier level to further charging lead battery manufacturers still recommend a max charge rate of 20% of the batteries capacity. I assume there is good reason for this & if so still question a high amp alternator pumping in significantly more than the 20% figure. It may well be that the resistance builds quickly so that the higher output from the alternator can only be used (just as an example) for the first few minutes of charging of a significantly discharged battery & thus do no damage. If that is the case it rather defeats the purpose of the such a high output alternator. Lithium would accept the full output & result in very fast charging.
    Last edited by Cuppa; 7th January 2020 at 07:35 PM.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, 240v, 3 Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2 lift, Lovells GVM upgrade, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697s, Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, Tyredog TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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  4. #9322
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10G View Post
    Do you think the D250S may have got damaged?

    If you're getting rid of that and it's OK I'm interested.
    I suspect it is damaged, simply because it was showing two orange lights on the solar panel to battery link, however the main green function light was gree, I am more than happy t send it to you, no issue as its no good to me with this system anyway. PM me with an address and I will box it up and send it across, sort of a belated Xmas pressy to you!!!
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  5. #9323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppa View Post
    So are you saying that the alternator has some sort of 'smarts' built in? If so it sounds like a good thing & my concern is unwarranted.

    However if the current input into the batteries relies upon the batteries internal resistance I am still confused. I know batteries will increase resistance as they become more fully charged (hence the reason alternators cannot generally charge a battery above around 80% & the need for smart chargers to take SoC up to 100% within a practical timeframe). However when below that resistance induced barrier level to further charging lead battery manufacturers still recommend a max charge rate of 20% of the batteries capacity. I assume there is good reason for this & if so still question a high amp alternator pumping in significantly more than the 20% figure. It may well be that the resistance builds quickly so that the higher output from the alternator can only be used (just as an example) for the first few minutes of charging, if that. If that is the case it rather defeats the purpose of the such a high output alternator. Lithium would accept the full output & result in very fast charging.
    Cuppa, the charge profile of a battery is based on its charge voltage. Without a 'smart regulator' or controller the alternator is pumping in volts against the capacity limit of the battery and the actual charge voltage of the alternator. Motor vehicle alternators are limited to around a 5-8% duty cycle, to ensure 1) they don't boil the battery, and secondly it prolongs the life of the battery since 99.( % of automotive batteries will see minimal depth of discharge over their short life and simply calcify up into death. There are a range of compounding issues here and some are not related to this situation. Right now, my alternator will charge to a max voltage of circa 14.8V. How long it stays at 14.8 depends on the state of charge of the battery(bank). Once the battery voltage tops out, the regulator in the alternator ramps back the excitation voltage and reduces the charge output - this is a bog standard brown dog alternator activity. Aftermarket dual battery systems analyse the battery, apply charge profiles that optimise the potential to raise the battery voltage or storage capacity from circa 80% to close to 100%. I had a Sterling Power system that utilised an externally regulated alternator and it would charge that battery bank up to
    supposedly 100%' and it was one of the front runners in the marine industry for battery care and advanced chargers. I don't expect to get any better than 80% of 400a/hr capacity is perhaps a better way to put it, unless I employ a smart charger system to optimise the final 20%. I am not running the Sterling System as they are a pig of a company to deal with in the UK, and nothing was repairable - a Sterling Pro Charger was $1000 20 yrs ago, and a unit today to handle the 300amp load is circa $2000, and its a big mutha of a thing as well.
    The 20% may be a conservative industry figure to ensure people are not overheating their batteries during high charge rates. As stated, its unlikely the 300 amps will come into play unless I am winching and the batteries are being rapidly depleted. If this happens, I am expecting some battery life reduction, but what %, no idea. A once off flogging might have no effect - this is heading back into Depth of Discharge territory again. I mentioned the internal resistance issue in light of the batteries being manufactured with different tolerances and they are a very crude device.

    Regards Lithium, I know absolutely nothing about these batteries, except they are lighter, have great recovery capability and can withstand high DOD cycling without detriment, plus are circa 3-4 times the current AGM price. I will flog my batteries and then maybe swap to lithium, but suspect it won't be for at least 8 - 10 yrs based on my previous battery life - I look after them.
    Manufacturer of the Complete Camp Oven System

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    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    It sounds like you know what you are getting into PeeBee,

    The issue which concerned me, the over 20% charging current with possible shortened battery lifespan is a matter of choice. Fair enough.

    It is also a matter of choice to accept shortened battery lifespan resulting from only charging them to 80% Soc on a regular basis. It is my belief that this is the reason that people generally get 5 years or less from crank batteries.

    Alternatives which result in longer battery lifespan may well not be cost effective however.

    If you were so inclined I for one would be interested to hear how the system works out over time.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, 240v, 3 Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2 lift, Lovells GVM upgrade, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697s, Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, Tyredog TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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  8. #9325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppa View Post
    It sounds like you know what you are getting into PeeBee,

    The issue which concerned me, the over 20% charging current with possible shortened battery lifespan is a matter of choice. Fair enough.

    It is also a matter of choice to accept shortened battery lifespan resulting from only charging them to 80% Soc on a regular basis. It is my belief that this is the reason that people generally get 5 years or less from crank batteries.

    Alternatives which result in longer battery lifespan may well not be cost effective however.

    If you were so inclined I for one would be interested to hear how the system works out over time.
    I will absolutely let you know if this works out for the better, the worse or otherwise. Since I cooked both the CTEK units, or at least I believe I did - 10G might want to test the 250 out, what is a simple high efficiency solar panel controller for 400w of panels/ I did use a Bobier unit many years ago, however it has 'robbing' me of a full volt during the control and regulation of the panels. I am not focused on cost, however would like a balance with performance is perhaps a better way to put it.
    Manufacturer of the Complete Camp Oven System

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  9. #9326
    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeBee View Post
    I will absolutely let you know if this works out for the better, the worse or otherwise. Since I cooked both the CTEK units, or at least I believe I did - 10G might want to test the 250 out, what is a simple high efficiency solar panel controller for 400w of panels/ I did use a Bobier unit many years ago, however it has 'robbing' me of a full volt during the control and regulation of the panels. I am not focused on cost, however would like a balance with performance is perhaps a better way to put it.
    The Victron MPPT 100/30 should keep you happy & at reasonable price on ebay. (Around $250) https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...-100-50-EN.pdf

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, 240v, 3 Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2 lift, Lovells GVM upgrade, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697s, Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, Tyredog TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppa View Post
    The Victron MPPT 100/30 should keep you happy & at reasonable price on ebay. (Around $250) https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...-100-50-EN.pdf
    Thanks Cuppa, just bought one. Didn't want the options so just the stand alone unit.
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  12. #9328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppa View Post
    My expectation of the solar matches yours MR, I only mentioned it as a 'clunky alternative to re-charging a 400Ah battery bank if it had been severely depleted by winching use, if the 300A alternator were not used. It could be a 3 day job. I can't see what connecting the 400Ah batteries in series would achieve - it would not increase the stored capacity, only the voltage (although this would allow for smaller connecting cables). The need for current regulation of a 300Amp alternator feeding into the 400AH battery ban would remain surely. The reason I suggested the possible need to have the 300A alternator only switched through to the 400Ah battery bank was in the absence of any means of regulating the output in normal circumstances when winch9ng was not occurring. I didn't suggest (I dont think) that it should be connected to a single battery, (Ie the crank battery) as this would have pretty much the same issue. What I did suggest was a two alternator setup, with the 300A one restricted to winch use only, unless there were some means of regulating it's current output.

    I don't understand your comment about a shared load - shared with what?

    It is all conjecture on my part. If you have a 300A alternator, or know of others who do, charging lead based battery banks of less than say 1200Ah how is yours (or theirs) set up? Maybe I am imagining a problem which doesn't exist?

    To be honest the more I think about it the more I think a change of battery type to LiFePo4 is probably the best, albeit rather expensive, solution.
    Hi mate, I am.on the phone so can't be shagged scrubbing out all the text but my comment regarding shared load and running the batteries in series was applying the logic (which is all I have) that if there is 400amps of battery storage available then allow theb300amp to be delivered to all of it at once rather than one at a time until each fills.

    1 x 400lt tank will fill evenly rather than 4 x 100lt tanks 1 at a time. This may be truly floored but makes sense in my head. I am way way out of my comfort zone. Phil is all over it and clearly knows his stuff. I have learnt plenty here. I am.juat trying to apply some "First Principles" as this is how I function when developing Engineering strategies for work. You guys are covering plenty of detail on the fine points though.
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  14. #9329
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD View Post
    Hi mate, I am.on the phone so can't be shagged scrubbing out all the text but my comment regarding shared load and running the batteries in series was applying the logic (which is all I have) that if there is 400amps of battery storage available then allow theb300amp to be delivered to all of it at once rather than one at a time until each fills.

    1 x 400lt tank will fill evenly rather than 4 x 100lt tanks 1 at a time. This may be truly floored but makes sense in my head. I am way way out of my comfort zone. Phil is all over it and clearly knows his stuff. I have learnt plenty here. I am.juat trying to apply some "First Principles" as this is how I function when developing Engineering strategies for work. You guys are covering plenty of detail on the fine points though.
    No worries MR. Your thinking about 'shared storage' makes sense. It is actually the normal way to charge multiple batteries - to have them connected together in a battery bank. Essentially two ways of doing that, either in parallel, or in series.
    By connecting them in parallel the nominal voltage of the single battery is maintained & the amp hours of the single battery multiplied the number of batteries.
    By connecting them in series the nominal voltage of the single battery is multiplied by the number of batteries & the amp hours remains that of the single battery.
    Both still hold the same amount of 'power' but with 24v the amp hours consumed by an appliance are halved using 24v compared to 12v. This is why higher voltage systems can use thinner cables.

    Importantly (in the context of our discussion) by connecting the batteries together, the charging source treats the batteries as a 'single battery'. which is what your thinking had correctly led you to. When you had referred to load sharing it confused me, as this generally refers to sharing 'load', ie what is being powered by the battery, so I was trying to imagine something to essentially take the place of the Winch (when it is not in use) to share the load. Eg. A bloody great heater hanging off the rear bumper!

    Parallel.jpgSeries.jpg

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, 240v, 3 Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2 lift, Lovells GVM upgrade, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697s, Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, Tyredog TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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  16. #9330
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeBee View Post
    I suspect it is damaged, simply because it was showing two orange lights on the solar panel to battery link, however the main green function light was gree, I am more than happy t send it to you, no issue as its no good to me with this system anyway. PM me with an address and I will box it up and send it across, sort of a belated Xmas pressy to you!!!
    OK, PM sent, nothing heard back, assume you don't want the unit, so its going in the bin.
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