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Thread: What did you do to your Patrol today!

  1. #9311
    Patrol Guru 10G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeBee View Post
    Yes, was a brain fart moment for sure. I wasn't expecting a full 300amps into the rear bank, and unfortunately I didn't have the ammeter connected as needed to extend the in cab wiring, so charged on with this alternate job - boy, should have gone to Jaycar and bought the damn cable. Anyway, its another lesson I guess. Looking around for a different system now, seems there are a few on the market.
    Do you think the D250S may have got damaged?

    If you're getting rid of that and it's OK I'm interested.
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  3. #9312
    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeBee View Post
    If the winch is pulling 300amps and you are supplying 300 amps there is no detrimental effect.
    That is the bit I am unsure about. Not saying it's wrong, just that I am not certain it's correct. Reason is that lead based batteries are generally recommended to be charged at around a max 20% of their capacity. However if the battery is full charged, & the input & output is balanced then the size of that input/output may be inconsequential. Also if that is so & the current draw exceeds what the alternator can supply then I don't see that as a problem, as it will just result in the battery becoming discharged, & that can be re-charged. Where I do wonder if there is a problem is what happens when the batteries are fairly low & you start the car running a 300amp alternator. Overcharging will kill batteries just as undercharging will. If the 20% rule is followed your battery bank needs a max of around 80amp charge. How, in those circumstances will you 'regulate' the input?

    I'm guessing that fitting the ctek stuff was an attempt to regulate the alternator input into a discharged battery?

    The alternative without it - I suppose - is to only connect the alternator to the aux batteries during winching, & let solar look after their charging the rest of the time? 400w solar will give a max of around 25 to 30 amps for however many 'sun hours a day' there are at the location. Optimistically - 150Ah per day? Seems an inconvenient/clunky solution to me.

    I suppose it really depends upon how long a period you expect to be winching for. To me it seems pretty extreme 'competition stuff' to need to run a 300amp to provide 'direct' power to the winch. In 'everyday' 4wd'ing I reckon it is significant overkill. In my setup my winch runs off the crank battery, & using a switch similar to that of Darren's I can parallel my 360Ah aux batteries to it to offer extended winching time if needed. To date my 70Ah alternator has been sufficient & the aux batteries hae not been used in that way. Assuming however that your intended use is more 'hardcore' than mine, I'd still reckon that you aux battery capacity in most if not all instances , together with an alternator sized to be able to be used with something like the ctek setup you had would be as much as most people would need.

    My way of looking at the 300A alternator is that unless it is a second alternator used only for winching, is that it needs some sort of 'variable output control', which allows it to be restricted to say 100 or 120A in normal use, or full output during winching. I imagine there are probably products out there to do this but would think that you'd be looking at big bikkies for something that specialised.

    The other alternative would be instead to swap the batteries for a LiFePo4 set up, but you would want to ensure that it had a very robust battery management system and ensure that the car's cooling system was up to coping with the additional sustained load from the alternator if it were in use full time.

    I acknowledge that high amp alternator & winching is outside my experience ...... it would be good to hear from anyone else who has been there/done that - as to just how they have set things up if they have done so in a way which has stood the test of time. No point in re-inventing wheels.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, 240v, 3” Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2” lift, Lovells GVM upgrade, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697’s, Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, Tyredog TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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  4. #9313
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    I think you will find cuppa that the Ctek setup came before the 300amp alternator and was simply an oversight. It wasn't added to deal with the alternator but rather was a victim of the upgrade.

    I expect that the 400w solar setup is there for long term static touring rather than a clunky backup to the 300amp alternator. 150ah a day from solar is a great delivery for most things I'd have thought. Way more than I have and plenty for most requirements.

    I appreciate the concern over the capacity for the batteries to accept the 300amps for sure. They really need to be connected in series and the full bank getbtue full 300ampd as a shared load I reckon. There is so much supply that I see No reason ever to isolate all 300amps to a single battery.

    300amps.... let us just contemplate that. Just Wow! That is effectively limitless. 90mm or even 120mm cable is the go I think.
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  5. #9314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti's Beast View Post
    I’ve seen so many people make the mistake of using deep cycle batteries for a winch too. The winch is basically a starter motor so it needs a cca rating to supply high amps to spin at the correct speed which in turn reduces current draw. If it runs too slow, heat builds up, resistance builds up etc


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Agree, These batteries have both a cCA rating of 1000cca and an a/hr rating of 130a/hr. How effective either is remains to be seen as have not used the batteries in anger for winching but they work great for the base camping and the coffee machine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD View Post

    I expect that the 400w solar setup is there for long term static touring rather than a clunky backup to the 300amp alternator. 150ah a day from solar is a great delivery for most things I'd have thought. Way more than I have and plenty for most requirements.

    I appreciate the concern over the capacity for the batteries to accept the 300amps for sure. They really need to be connected in series and the full bank getbtue full 300ampd as a shared load I reckon. There is so much supply that I see No reason ever to isolate all 300amps to a single battery.
    My expectation of the solar matches yours MR, I only mentioned it as a 'clunky alternative to re-charging a 400Ah battery bank if it had been severely depleted by winching use, if the 300A alternator were not used. It could be a 3 day job. I can't see what connecting the 400Ah batteries in series would achieve - it would not increase the stored capacity, only the voltage (although this would allow for smaller connecting cables). The need for current regulation of a 300Amp alternator feeding into the 400AH battery ban would remain surely. The reason I suggested the possible need to have the 300A alternator only switched through to the 400Ah battery bank was in the absence of any means of regulating the output in normal circumstances when winch9ng was not occurring. I didn't suggest (I dont think) that it should be connected to a single battery, (Ie the crank battery) as this would have pretty much the same issue. What I did suggest was a two alternator setup, with the 300A one restricted to winch use only, unless there were some means of regulating it's current output.

    I don't understand your comment about a shared load - shared with what?

    It is all conjecture on my part. If you have a 300A alternator, or know of others who do, charging lead based battery banks of less than say 1200Ah how is yours (or theirs) set up? Maybe I am imagining a problem which doesn't exist?

    To be honest the more I think about it the more I think a change of battery type to LiFePo4 is probably the best, albeit rather expensive, solution.
    Last edited by Cuppa; 7th January 2020 at 07:50 PM.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, 240v, 3” Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2” lift, Lovells GVM upgrade, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697’s, Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, Tyredog TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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  7. #9316
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudRunnerTD View Post
    I think you will find cuppa that the Ctek setup came before the 300amp alternator and was simply an oversight. It wasn't added to deal with the alternator but rather was a victim of the upgrade.

    I expect that the 400w solar setup is there for long term static touring rather than a clunky backup to the 300amp alternator. 150ah a day from solar is a great delivery for most things I'd have thought. Way more than I have and plenty for most requirements.

    I appreciate the concern over the capacity for the batteries to accept the 300amps for sure. They really need to be connected in series and the full bank getbtue full 300ampd as a shared load I reckon. There is so much supply that I see No reason ever to isolate all 300amps to a single battery.

    300amps.... let us just contemplate that. Just Wow! That is effectively limitless. 90mm or even 120mm cable is the go I think.
    OK, more or less as defined above is correct. The solar is simply for base camping, nothing else.

    What is also necessary to mention is that the alternator may be rated at 300amps, however its output is ramped up against the load, so for example, I had the car idling in the driveway this afternoon and it was outputting 12 amps. I checked with with another identical meter and a dc tong tester, and then when a load is applied to the system, such as headlights, high beams and one light bar the ammeter showed a charge rate of 35 amps. I expect my nominal amp draw to be around the 60 - 70 amps with everything running, fridge, headlights , a/c driving lights. What will happen then is the alternator has plenty of capacity to then idle away this load. Having the additional rectifiers on board keeps the heat load down per rectifier, hence their efficiency is increased, as is their life. It will be interesting to se how it performs under a winching load.

    I think you need to think of the analogy I proposed with the pump and bucket. Its simply electron flow, there is no need for the battery to absorb then redistribute as such. The absorbtion phase is simply for storage.

    Currently the charge configuration is alternator to main battery, then a charge lead from crank battery down to the 3 batteries, that are charged in parallel. I simply have a 300amp fuse in line and a 1000amp 100% duty cycle isolation switch at 12VDC to provide the separation until I find something else. I am in discussion with 5 different company's now and the simplest is a 275amp 100% duty rated selector switch that has voltage sensing and preferential charging, all for $240.

    Each battery will absorb what it needs, so its not a straight forward situation of 'mechanically splitting' the flow to get even charging, nor is it required as why overcharge a battery - remember, the internal resistance of each battery will vary, as will its discharge profile - they are not clones as such. I don't expect issues under normal operation with heat as such, simply as process heat is a manifestation of the work taking place. Ambient heat is a static degradation regardless of the load put on the system.

    Anyway, good conversation guys, great to be able to openly challenge and get feedback from a range of experienced people - a wise old boss of mine once told me, and I have always remember this ' we are never as clever as the group of us', unless you are an Albert Einstein of course.
    Last edited by PeeBee; 7th January 2020 at 08:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeBee View Post

    What is also necessary to mention is that the alternator may be rated at 300amps, however its output is ramped up against the load, so for example, I had the car addling in the driveway this afternoon and it was outputting 12 amps. I checked with with another identical meter and a dc tong tester, and then when a load is applied to the system, such as headlights, high beams and one light bar the ammeter showed a charge rate of 35 amps. I expect my nominal amp draw to be around the 60 - 70 amps with everything running, fridge, headlights , a/c driving lights. What will happen then is the alternator has plenty of capacity to then idle away this load. Having the additional rectifiers on board keeps the heat load down per rectifier, hence their efficiency is increased, as is their life. It will be interesting to se how it performs under a winching load.
    So are you saying that the alternator has some sort of 'smarts' built in? If so it sounds like a good thing & my concern is unwarranted.

    However if the current input into the batteries relies upon the batteries internal resistance I am still confused. I know batteries will increase resistance as they become more fully charged (hence the reason alternators cannot generally charge a battery above around 80% & the need for smart chargers to take SoC up to 100% within a practical timeframe). However when below that resistance induced barrier level to further charging lead battery manufacturers still recommend a max charge rate of 20% of the batteries capacity. I assume there is good reason for this & if so still question a high amp alternator pumping in significantly more than the 20% figure. It may well be that the resistance builds quickly so that the higher output from the alternator can only be used (just as an example) for the first few minutes of charging of a significantly discharged battery & thus do no damage. If that is the case it rather defeats the purpose of the such a high output alternator. Lithium would accept the full output & result in very fast charging.
    Last edited by Cuppa; 7th January 2020 at 08:35 PM.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, 240v, 3” Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2” lift, Lovells GVM upgrade, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697’s, Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, Tyredog TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10G View Post
    Do you think the D250S may have got damaged?

    If you're getting rid of that and it's OK I'm interested.
    I suspect it is damaged, simply because it was showing two orange lights on the solar panel to battery link, however the main green function light was gree, I am more than happy t send it to you, no issue as its no good to me with this system anyway. PM me with an address and I will box it up and send it across, sort of a belated Xmas pressy to you!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppa View Post
    So are you saying that the alternator has some sort of 'smarts' built in? If so it sounds like a good thing & my concern is unwarranted.

    However if the current input into the batteries relies upon the batteries internal resistance I am still confused. I know batteries will increase resistance as they become more fully charged (hence the reason alternators cannot generally charge a battery above around 80% & the need for smart chargers to take SoC up to 100% within a practical timeframe). However when below that resistance induced barrier level to further charging lead battery manufacturers still recommend a max charge rate of 20% of the batteries capacity. I assume there is good reason for this & if so still question a high amp alternator pumping in significantly more than the 20% figure. It may well be that the resistance builds quickly so that the higher output from the alternator can only be used (just as an example) for the first few minutes of charging, if that. If that is the case it rather defeats the purpose of the such a high output alternator. Lithium would accept the full output & result in very fast charging.
    Cuppa, the charge profile of a battery is based on its charge voltage. Without a 'smart regulator' or controller the alternator is pumping in volts against the capacity limit of the battery and the actual charge voltage of the alternator. Motor vehicle alternators are limited to around a 5-8% duty cycle, to ensure 1) they don't boil the battery, and secondly it prolongs the life of the battery since 99.( % of automotive batteries will see minimal depth of discharge over their short life and simply calcify up into death. There are a range of compounding issues here and some are not related to this situation. Right now, my alternator will charge to a max voltage of circa 14.8V. How long it stays at 14.8 depends on the state of charge of the battery(bank). Once the battery voltage tops out, the regulator in the alternator ramps back the excitation voltage and reduces the charge output - this is a bog standard brown dog alternator activity. Aftermarket dual battery systems analyse the battery, apply charge profiles that optimise the potential to raise the battery voltage or storage capacity from circa 80% to close to 100%. I had a Sterling Power system that utilised an externally regulated alternator and it would charge that battery bank up to
    supposedly 100%' and it was one of the front runners in the marine industry for battery care and advanced chargers. I don't expect to get any better than 80% of 400a/hr capacity is perhaps a better way to put it, unless I employ a smart charger system to optimise the final 20%. I am not running the Sterling System as they are a pig of a company to deal with in the UK, and nothing was repairable - a Sterling Pro Charger was $1000 20 yrs ago, and a unit today to handle the 300amp load is circa $2000, and its a big mutha of a thing as well.
    The 20% may be a conservative industry figure to ensure people are not overheating their batteries during high charge rates. As stated, its unlikely the 300 amps will come into play unless I am winching and the batteries are being rapidly depleted. If this happens, I am expecting some battery life reduction, but what %, no idea. A once off flogging might have no effect - this is heading back into Depth of Discharge territory again. I mentioned the internal resistance issue in light of the batteries being manufactured with different tolerances and they are a very crude device.

    Regards Lithium, I know absolutely nothing about these batteries, except they are lighter, have great recovery capability and can withstand high DOD cycling without detriment, plus are circa 3-4 times the current AGM price. I will flog my batteries and then maybe swap to lithium, but suspect it won't be for at least 8 - 10 yrs based on my previous battery life - I look after them.
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