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Thread: dawes and needle valve for common rail?

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    Expert pollenface's Avatar
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    An egr block is a physical barrier to stop or reduce exhaust gasses entering the throttle body.

    A catch can is to condense the oil vapor from the crankcase vent to minimize the condensed oil in the intake system (turbo/intercooler/throttle body)
    2008 CRD Auto Wagon
    Factory snorkel, flashlube catchcan pro, 3" manta exhaust, hpd boost controller, dyno-tuned & egr deleted, 2x dual batt systems, 3 batteries, arb bullbar, cheap HIDs, stock lift/tyres, rear helper airbags

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerthGuy View Post
    hi there, Im New to Patrols (searching for my first actually) looking for late model CRD.

    My question (newbie) is what is the difference between installing an EGR block and a catch can? maybe im missing the purpose of the catch can, if you have the EGR block in place? Sorry if this is a newbie question
    Gíday mate welcome aboard

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerthGuy View Post
    hi there, Im New to Patrols (searching for my first actually) looking for late model CRD.

    My question (newbie) is what is the difference between installing an EGR block and a catch can? maybe im missing the purpose of the catch can, if you have the EGR block in place? Sorry if this is a newbie question
    Two totally different things mate.

    The EGR block. Blocks the exhaust gases that are recirculated back into the air intake via the EGR valve. A catch can, filters( filters as in cleans the gases of the oil) the crank case vapours that are recirculated from the rocker cover and back into the air intake.

    Two totally different things.

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    I have had a dawes and needle setup on mine for about two years now, with no ill effects. The ecu does a good job on an unmodifed car.

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    Hi all, thanks for your responses and apologies for the delay in coming back here.

    are the air paths totally different. ie should you do one or the other, or both? the catch can cleans the air that goes in and the EGR block stops it from getting into the air intake completely.

    If worried about the air intake, would the EGR block be sufficient. Maybe the catch can stops (reduces) particulate deposits elsewhere in the engine?

    Just bought a 2015 GU ST, 50,000km and am loving the car so far. So much potential and certainly different from the prado!

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    when the car is on boost and you then take your foot off the throttle , the pressure blow back in the air intake carries engine blowby gasses back past the MAF sensor , after a while this builds up on the MAF sensor and causes it to give false readings . A catchcan greatly cleans up the blowby gasses which in turn keeps the MAF sensor cleaner longer . although it is still advisable to occasionable clean the MAF sensor with MAF sensor cleaner spray occasionally ( i do mine when i do oil changes ) . if the egr is not blocked the catch can does go someway towards helping keep the inlet manifold and valve intake ports clean , as the blowby gasses combine with the egr gasses to stick and clog them up .
    if you block the egr it would stop the crud buildup occurring in the first place , and most people would get better fuel economy and more power although you may need to look at a dawse and needle valve arrangement to help control the turbo , which has benifits of allowing higher boost ( more Power ) and better driveability ( more power at lower RPMs )
    Last edited by nipagu7; 18th February 2021 at 05:43 PM.

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    Ok Thankyou. Thatís kind of what I was guessing. Block it off then donít need a catch can.
    Do you have to do the Dawes and needle valve if you have blocked the EGR?

    Thanks again for helping a newbie out

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    Boost is not what is needed by your engine.
    Only airflow matters ( MAF voltage represents an estimate of the quantity of air pushed by the turbo inside admission and your cylinders.

    It is a common but wrong belief that all you need is boost.
    Take a garden hose. Close it. open the tap. You build pressure in, but you get no flow.
    Make a very little hole in it. You'll get pressurized water, but no flow/quantity of water pouring.

    Now take you dawes. it blocks any flow until it opens. As a result, the vanes are closed, the turbo spins, but exhaust gaz can't exit the cylinders fast enough. All you do is build-up back pressure, and therefore boost, but very little flow.

    Little quantity of air, small MAF voltage seen by the ECU. The ECU requests a small quantity of fuel to your IP. And you get little torque/power down low.

    The way the vanes of a VNT MUST be managed ( and this is the way the ECU manages the VNT for a full STOCK configuration is as follows :

    keep the vanes closed until the exhaust turbine spins fast enough. At 3psi, starts opening the vanes as boost is building up, until mid-aperture is reached. This vanes position ( mid-aperture / mid-closure) is the position at which the turbo provides its best efficiency !!
    Stay in that position / open very slightly vanes as boost continues to build-up until you get close to max boost, then open vanes more rapidly to keep max boost under control.

    Good luck with valves. As a minimum, set 3 ( yes THREE : one dawes TWO needles ) valves as follows :
    get the dawes to open at 3-4 psi. put a needle behind the dawes to regulate the positive flow which is going to open the vanes.
    The outstanding issue is that you will not be able to stop the vanes from opening at mid aperture. Only a proper electronic control can provide the exact positioning of vanes at all times, depending upon your Patrol configuration.

    So you will have to compromise, and will never be able to get the right cruise boost that you wish to have, at 80 or at 110 km/h.
    Only one position of the vanes at all loads/Revs provides the maximum airflow (and maximum power). I called this the 'turbo map'.

    I have spent two years studying an analysing in detail what my 2000 Patrol was doing, and why. And found the solution to accomodate properly my EGR being blocked and my 3" exhaust (less back-pressure ), with the best spool-up, torque down low and power.
    Only the MAF value matters. Believe me.

    As soon as you touch anything to your stock Patrol, your ECM is lost and can't manage. There are many work-arounds, but none is perfect, and some worst than others (one dawes one needle). Sorry to be so blunt, but I spent so much time trying to understand it all.
    I wished someone had explained all this to me 2 years ago when I was scratching my head, and bumping it against the wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phdv61 View Post
    Boost is not what is needed by your engine.
    Only airflow matters ( MAF voltage represents an estimate of the quantity of air pushed by the turbo inside admission and your cylinders.

    It is a common but wrong belief that all you need is boost.
    Take a garden hose. Close it. open the tap. You build pressure in, but you get no flow.
    Make a very little hole in it. You'll get pressurized water, but no flow/quantity of water pouring.

    Now take you dawes. it blocks any flow until it opens. As a result, the vanes are closed, the turbo spins, but exhaust gaz can't exit the cylinders fast enough. All you do is build-up back pressure, and therefore boost, but very little flow.

    Little quantity of air, small MAF voltage seen by the ECU. The ECU requests a small quantity of fuel to your IP. And you get little torque/power down low.

    The way the vanes of a VNT MUST be managed ( and this is the way the ECU manages the VNT for a full STOCK configuration is as follows :

    keep the vanes closed until the exhaust turbine spins fast enough. At 3psi, starts opening the vanes as boost is building up, until mid-aperture is reached. This vanes position ( mid-aperture / mid-closure) is the position at which the turbo provides its best efficiency !!
    Stay in that position / open very slightly vanes as boost continues to build-up until you get close to max boost, then open vanes more rapidly to keep max boost under control.

    Good luck with valves. As a minimum, set 3 ( yes THREE : one dawes TWO needles ) valves as follows :
    get the dawes to open at 3-4 psi. put a needle behind the dawes to regulate the positive flow which is going to open the vanes.
    The outstanding issue is that you will not be able to stop the vanes from opening at mid aperture. Only a proper electronic control can provide the exact positioning of vanes at all times, depending upon your Patrol configuration.

    So you will have to compromise, and will never be able to get the right cruise boost that you wish to have, at 80 or at 110 km/h.
    Only one position of the vanes at all loads/Revs provides the maximum airflow (and maximum power). I called this the 'turbo map'.

    I have spent two years studying an analysing in detail what my 2000 Patrol was doing, and why. And found the solution to accomodate properly my EGR being blocked and my 3" exhaust (less back-pressure ), with the best spool-up, torque down low and power.
    Only the MAF value matters. Believe me.

    As soon as you touch anything to your stock Patrol, your ECM is lost and can't manage. There are many work-arounds, but none is perfect, and some worst than others (one dawes one needle). Sorry to be so blunt, but I spent so much time trying to understand it all.
    I wished someone had explained all this to me 2 years ago when I was scratching my head, and bumping it against the wall.
    Soooo what have you done?

    IF YA DONT GET STUCK YA AINT TRYIN HARD ENOUGH........OR YA TOOK THE CHICKEN TRACK

    WARNING: TOWBALLS USED WITH SNATCHSTRAPS DO KILL!!

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerthGuy View Post
    Ok Thankyou. That’s kind of what I was guessing. Block it off then don’t need a catch can.
    Do you have to do the Dawes and needle valve if you have blocked the EGR?

    Thanks again for helping a newbie out
    you don't have to have any of them, they are all there to help improve your engine performance and longevity, to some extent. in my opinion, you need a catch and block the EGR, on any diesel engine. The EGR simply blocks up your intake system with soot and mixed with oily crankcase vapours from not having a catch can will make your intake block up like cholesterol...
    Quote Originally Posted by phdv61 View Post
    Boost is not what is needed by your engine.
    Only airflow matters ( MAF voltage represents an estimate of the quantity of air pushed by the turbo inside admission and your cylinders.

    It is a common but wrong belief that all you need is boost.
    Take a garden hose. Close it. open the tap. You build pressure in, but you get no flow.
    Make a very little hole in it. You'll get pressurized water, but no flow/quantity of water pouring.

    Now take you dawes. it blocks any flow until it opens. As a result, the vanes are closed, the turbo spins, but exhaust gaz can't exit the cylinders fast enough. All you do is build-up back pressure, and therefore boost, but very little flow.

    Little quantity of air, small MAF voltage seen by the ECU. The ECU requests a small quantity of fuel to your IP. And you get little torque/power down low.

    The way the vanes of a VNT MUST be managed ( and this is the way the ECU manages the VNT for a full STOCK configuration is as follows :

    keep the vanes closed until the exhaust turbine spins fast enough. At 3psi, starts opening the vanes as boost is building up, until mid-aperture is reached. This vanes position ( mid-aperture / mid-closure) is the position at which the turbo provides its best efficiency !!
    Stay in that position / open very slightly vanes as boost continues to build-up until you get close to max boost, then open vanes more rapidly to keep max boost under control.

    Good luck with valves. As a minimum, set 3 ( yes THREE : one dawes TWO needles ) valves as follows :
    get the dawes to open at 3-4 psi. put a needle behind the dawes to regulate the positive flow which is going to open the vanes.
    The outstanding issue is that you will not be able to stop the vanes from opening at mid aperture. Only a proper electronic control can provide the exact positioning of vanes at all times, depending upon your Patrol configuration.

    So you will have to compromise, and will never be able to get the right cruise boost that you wish to have, at 80 or at 110 km/h.
    Only one position of the vanes at all loads/Revs provides the maximum airflow (and maximum power). I called this the 'turbo map'.

    I have spent two years studying an analysing in detail what my 2000 Patrol was doing, and why. And found the solution to accomodate properly my EGR being blocked and my 3" exhaust (less back-pressure ), with the best spool-up, torque down low and power.
    Only the MAF value matters. Believe me.

    As soon as you touch anything to your stock Patrol, your ECM is lost and can't manage. There are many work-arounds, but none is perfect, and some worst than others (one dawes one needle). Sorry to be so blunt, but I spent so much time trying to understand it all.
    I wished someone had explained all this to me 2 years ago when I was scratching my head, and bumping it against the wall.
    Not sure about your first comment. When I had my ZD di, there was a massive difference in performance from 15psi of max boost, to what I ended up setting it at to 25psi of max boost with 18 psi cruise boost. The main issue was getting around the 16psi boost limit the ECU had, once I got rid of that I could do anything I wanted and the not worry about limp mode.
    Last edited by mudski; 20th May 2021 at 08:26 AM.

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