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Thread: Cheap LIFEP04 batteries

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    Cheap LIFEP04 batteries

    Thinking of throwing some cash out on one of those cheap lifePo4 lithium batteries.

    Price ranges seem to be around $850 - $950 for a range of 12v 100Ah batteries, then they drop down to around $500, most likely chinese seconds I guess.

    Why am I looking at these? Well I need a new battery for a medical appliance, only needs to be 12v 50Ah, looked at LifeP04 but they're still around $450.00, so me thinks, why not get one of these cheap 100Ah ones.

    OR ARE THEY A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY??????
    ..

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    Was looking at some specs on these today. All seemed to have battery management systems onboard, so drop them in where the agm was.
    I did see that the cheaper ones can not be set up in parallel, and the maximum current draw was around 50 amps compared to 200+ on the expensive ones, which can be parrallelled.
    Lithiums can be cycled MUCH much more deeply than an agm, and can be recharged MANY more times.
    Not a waste of money, but the price will keep dropping.
    Last edited by Mickhead; 2nd March 2020 at 04:24 PM.

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    The only two that I have any experience with are Itech and these http://www.lowenergydevelopments.com...thiumBatteries

    I haven't had any problems yet with Itech and the Low Energy ones are only recent so to early call.

    Both have good reviews so far on the W.W.W.L.B. (World Wide Web of Lying Bastards)

    If you want up to a 3,000 amp draw for winching and literally bullet proof option you want these http://www.lowenergydevelopments.com...name&order=ASC
    Last edited by the evil twin; 2nd March 2020 at 04:26 PM.
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    I've been looking on that website ET.

    They offer 5 year warranty on just about all their lithium batteries which is the longest warranty I've seen yet.
    ..

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    Never had experience with the cheap ones but I have 2x50ah 4s propower lithiums ($600 each) running a 24v 3000w inverter in my shed. They run all my power tools bar the welder & compressor. They are rated to 100amp discharge current. They go hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pollenface View Post
    Never had experience with the cheap ones but I have 2x50ah 4s propower lithiums ($600 each) running a 24v 3000w inverter in my shed. They run all my power tools bar the welder & compressor. They are rated to 100amp discharge current. They go hard.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pro-Powe...xX6YVaIqIWtn5A
    Yow, how long have you been using them mate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pollenface View Post
    Never had experience with the cheap ones but I have 2x50ah 4s propower lithiums ($600 each) running a 24v 3000w inverter in my shed. They run all my power tools bar the welder & compressor. They are rated to 100amp discharge current. They go hard.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pro-Powe...xX6YVaIqIWtn5A
    Sounds like a fair system but a bit low on watt hours and discharge current compared to the itech 120 ah units at around 900?

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    All of the drop in Lithiums have some sort of battery management system built in, inside the case. Many (most? all?) are of a type which shed excess current as heat. At the point they need to shed current, the batteries will already be close to being over voltage & thus getting hotter. Adding further heat, inside a sealed box is the last thing they need. Add in the fact that a major benefit of lithiums is their ability to accept high charge rates increases the possibility of more heat being shed by the BMS. The BMS will be a printed circuit board, & these too can fail if they are consistently overheated, without any access to air cooling. With a 'drop in' replacement if the BMS dies, the whole battery is cactus. The result will be a shortened lifespan of the battery. In addition, many of the cheaper battery management systems (BMS) will be just that, working only on overall voltage, rather than a cell management system (CMS) which incorporates auto cell balancing as required. Getting cells too much out of balance does occur with lithiums & can cause premature failure.

    The above is a summary of my understanding of what a friend in the business of building, supplying & fitting lithium batteries has told me. He believes that for a long reliable life it is essential for a lithium battery pack to have a BMS which incorporates a CMS & that this should be external to the battery pack. I'm only repeating what I have been told, personally I have no experience of Lithiums. I do know however that were I to pay the significantly higher price for lithium over AGM (or other lead acid battery types) I would want them to last at least as long (ie. a minimum 10 year lifespan).

    If the medical appliance is a CPAP machine, I run mine without a 2nd thought - average 20Ah per night or 26Ah with humidifier. If your solar/battery system is likely to struggle with similar 'extra' load. It may be a *lot* cheaper & more effective to stick with AGM battery(ies) & just add a bit more charging input (another solar panel, and/or dc to dc charging), space permitting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppa View Post
    All of the drop in Lithiums have some sort of battery management system built in, inside the case. Many (most? all?) are of a type which shed excess current as heat. At the point they need to shed current, the batteries will already be close to being over voltage & thus getting hotter. Adding further heat, inside a sealed box is the last thing they need. Add in the fact that a major benefit of lithiums is their ability to accept high charge rates increases the possibility of more heat being shed by the BMS. The BMS will be a printed circuit board, & these too can fail if they are consistently overheated, without any access to air cooling. With a 'drop in' replacement if the BMS dies, the whole battery is cactus. The result will be a shortened lifespan of the battery. In addition, many of the cheaper battery management systems (BMS) will be just that, working only on overall voltage, rather than a cell management system (CMS) which incorporates auto cell balancing as required. Getting cells too much out of balance does occur with lithiums & can cause premature failure.

    The above is a summary of my understanding of what a friend in the business of building, supplying & fitting lithium batteries has told me. He believes that for a long reliable life it is essential for a lithium battery pack to have a BMS which incorporates a CMS & that this should be external to the battery pack. I'm only repeating what I have been told, personally I have no experience of Lithiums. I do know however that were I to pay the significantly higher price for lithium over AGM (or other lead acid battery types) I would want them to last at least as long (ie. a minimum 10 year lifespan).

    If the medical appliance is a CPAP machine, I run mine without a 2nd thought - average 20Ah per night or 26Ah with humidifier. If your solar/battery system is likely to struggle with similar 'extra' load. It may be a *lot* cheaper & more effective to stick with AGM battery(ies) & just add a bit more charging input (another solar panel, and/or dc to dc charging), space permitting.
    Last year I bought a 12v 50Ah AGM for the CPAP and after about 3 weeks the battery was dying mid night. Each day I charged the AGM via a Nocco charger I was running off my inverter as I drove. Each day the AGM was fully charged. The AGM was around $170, maybe not the best brand, maybe a dud AGM, but maybe then again it may have been the best AGM for that price, we don't know.

    So I know I can charge anything.

    Do you keep your battery on some type of charger overnight while in use Cuppa??? An inverter or similar?? What brand of battery are you using??
    ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10G View Post
    Last year I bought a 12v 50Ah AGM for the CPAP and after about 3 weeks the battery was dying mid night. Each day I charged the AGM via a Nocco charger I was running off my inverter as I drove. Each day the AGM was fully charged. The AGM was around $170, maybe not the best brand, maybe a dud AGM, but maybe then again it may have been the best AGM for that price, we don't know.

    So I know I can charge anything.

    Do you keep your battery on some type of charger overnight while in use Cuppa??? An inverter or similar?? What brand of battery are you using??
    I suspect it may not be a battery problem per se, but rather a CPAP machine which uses way more than mine - most do. It is quite likely , for example, that a Resmed machine will want 50Ah+ per night, more if humidification is used. More if you need a high pressure setting. Essentially I suspect that a 50Ah battery is too small for the use you are putting it too (regardless of what the machine's manufacturer might say!). If I'm correct, then a 50Ah Lithium will be no different . You would either need a larger battery or a more efficient cpap.

    No my batteries are not charged overnight. Only via solar or from DC to DC when driving. I probably have more battery & solar capacity than you, but the batteries are generally back to float by mid to late morning each day regardless of whether we drive or not. That is with overnight use by lighting (minimal), a 60 litre fridge, a 35 litre freezer, phone & laptop recharging & the Cpap which gets between 6 & 9 hours use a night. Batteries (3) are 120Ah Ritar, DC series.

    Provided your Nocco charger has sufficient output (amps) to bring a battery back to float each day within your driving period then I reckon larger capacity battery is what you need. How much larger depends upon what else yo run from it other than the cpap. If only the cpap I'd say a 100Ah should do the trick, 120Ah if you can fit it. Only reason to make it a lithium is if you want less weight (hard to justify the weight saving/cost ratio alone though), or if you expect to be regularly only driving for insufficient time to get the battery back to float (& even then, it would probably be cheaper to invest in greater charging (bigger charger or more solar) than to go with lithium.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti lithium, but just believe that lithium only makes sense if you need it for high current devices/fast charging/less weight. Without the high current devices (eg. coffee machine, hair dryer etc) I personally feel it is hard to justify the higher cost. And I also remain unconvinced by the 'drop in' lithium options. I will probably go lithium (with external battery/cell management) when my AGM's die (now in their 8th year) if still planning to keep the Patrol & if it's convenient at the time, primarily to lose weight - I would expect to save around 60kg if I replaced 360Ah Agm with 200Ah Lithium. I does only make sense (for me) if it were a long term investment though.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, heaps of easy access storage, 240v, 3” Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2” lift, 3900kg GVM upgrade, second glovebox, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697's (now Toyo RT's), Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, Icom 450 CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 180 litre fuel in two tanks (approx 1200km range) 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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