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Thread: Solar Regulator

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    Expert Tonks's Avatar
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    Solar Regulator

    My 165watt folding solar panel came with a 10amp PWM solar regulator,
    I have seen on ebay that the exact one can be purchased for only 20 bucks,
    If i were to purchase a better one or different one could i then make the panels more efficient,
    PWM v MPPT ? whats the difference,
    Any feedback would be great,
    Cheers
    Tonks.
    2004 GU111 4.2 TURBO WAGON, 2" OME SUSPENSION, 33" MTZ's, 3" BEAUDESERT EXHAUST, ARB ROOF RACK, ARB AWNING, BLACK WIDOW DRAW SYSTEM & CARGO BARRIER, DUAL BATTERIES, 12,000lb WINCH, GME UHF, LIGHT FORCE XGT SPOTTIES, BERRIMA DIESEL TUNE.

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    Expert Steve4wdin's Avatar
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    If you drop Cuppa a pm or wait a bit, he will be your man. He helped me out heaps with solar setup. I can go bush a week on mine running a 80lt fridge and Aldi coffee m/c and was no were near running out of power.
    Steve

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    I bought a Suntrans 20A reg for my panels I had to replace the cheap reg that came with the panels. I also chucked the shoe string 10m lead that came with it and made a new one with 6b&s cable. Much much better it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonks View Post
    My 165watt folding solar panel came with a 10amp PWM solar regulator,
    I have seen on ebay that the exact one can be purchased for only 20 bucks,
    If i were to purchase a better one or different one could i then make the panels more efficient,
    PWM v MPPT ? whats the difference,
    Any feedback would be great,
    Cheers
    Tonks.
    Yes I would get a larger MPPT reg.

    10 Amp PWM is a tad small for that size panel as at peak solar it will be at nearly 100% capacity.

    The best way to look at Regs is like this(not exactly technically correct but easier to understand and simpler to type).

    Solar Panels in good sunlight put out much higher voltages than 12 volts
    Lets say the panel is producing 16 volts at 8 amps

    PWM, is like a simple voltage reg which is why they are so cheap.
    They limit voltage and pass current
    They take the 16 volts 8 amps from the panel and drop it to 12 volts 8 amps and throw away the surplus.

    MPPT is kinda like a DC/DC current step up device so more complex.
    They use the same input of 16 volts 8 amps and use the surplus volts to add a bit more current so they maximise the amps at the output to 12 volts 10 amps.
    Hence the name Max Peak Power Tracking, they track the peak power they can get from the input and produce it at the output.
    The panels deliver the same power in both cases, it is just that the "better" reg can use it more efficiently.

    I stress the above is not exactly correct or real world figures just easiest way to get your head around it.

    In your case a 20 amp MPPT reg would definitely deliver more power.
    The more sun the better efficiency, I'd guesstimate about 12 to 15% at peak solar IE direct sunlight, correct angle between 9 am/3pm in summer months.
    If your leads are poo and you get good quality cable and keep them reasonably short you might get as much as 20% more useable power but that would be the best you could expect
    Last edited by the evil twin; 2nd August 2014 at 11:25 AM.
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    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonks View Post
    My 165watt folding solar panel came with a 10amp PWM solar regulator,
    I have seen on ebay that the exact one can be purchased for only 20 bucks,
    If i were to purchase a better one or different one could i then make the panels more efficient,
    PWM v MPPT ? whats the difference,
    Any feedback would be great,
    Cheers
    Tonks.
    Yes you can improve greatly on the cheap ‘throwaway’ reg supplied with your panel. A few things to consider.
    1. Regs fixed to the rear of panels are not in a good place. A reg close to the battery being charged will be noticeably more efficient.

    2. A better reg will be more efficient & will treat your battery more kindly extending it’s life.

    3. PWM v MPPT? what’s the difference - on many cheap MPPT regs the reg has MPPT printed on the front - that’s about it! On better quality MPPT regs they are better at squeezing a bit more intoyour battery in poor solar conditions, mainly early or late in the day, but expect to pay a lot more for one that actually does this. My view is that a mid priced PWM reg is a better option than a cheap or mid priced MPPT reg. MPPT is a good thing, but like oils aint oils, MPPT aint MPPT. On most cheaper regs it is either a waste of time or non existent other than on the deceptive label.

    4. If having to choose between a PWM reg with a battery temp sensor & an MPPT without, I would always go for the one with a temperature sensor. Temperature compensation will make a significant difference to both efficiency & battery life. Some regs have the sensor built into the reg, this is ok if the reg is close to the battery (& subject to the same temps), but one that has a remote sensor at the battery is far better.

    5. MPPT is particularly useful if the user is wanting to use higher (than 12v) panels to charge a 12v battery.

    6. Regs can cost anything from under $10 to many hundreds of dollars. All will ‘work’, but some will work better than others, but you do pay more for ‘bells & whistles’ i.e. One with display will cost more than one with just a couple of LED lights. The more configurable the reg the more it will cost. The more info it gives the more it will cost.
    For those not interested in knowing what is going on a basic mid priced model with no readout will be just as efficient & treat batteries just as well as ‘bells & whistles’ models. Depends on what you want.

    7. Changing the skinny cables supplied with panel should be changed to more substantial ones. This will make a significant difference to efficiency. Thickness required depends upon length of cable/wattage of panels.


    Different folk have different preferences regarding brands, but I think that the mid priced Morningstar regs with temperature compensation (Prostar) are good value & quality....... with one proviso. The ones with only LED lights to indicate state of charge tend to show ‘Red’ rather early. One with a digital readout showing actual battery voltage is worthwhile if you can afford the extra. (or fit a separate voltage meter, or carry a dmm & know how to use it). Cheaper still are Morningstar Sunsaver models, but these have no temperature compensation (not so good). Morningstar underate their regs, meaning that a 10 amp one will be able to make use of any higher peak (freak) input your panel may produce (in very specific circumstances).

    Lastly, if you think there is any chance you might get an extra panel at some point down the track it is worth getting a regulator with the capacity to handle that extra panel now. For only what you have a 10Amp one will suffice, just. If buying a Prostar the 15 amp model would be the go, the 30 amp model would allow for expansion down the track.

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Morningstar-ProStar-15A-12-24V-Solar-Controller-Basic-/291206176907?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item43cd3da08b&_uhb= 1

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Morningstar-ProStar-15A-PS15-M-Charge-Controller-/321478368967?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item4ad99a9ec7&_uhb= 1

    or if not wanting to spend quite so much this reg is one I know plenty of folk have used successfully, & allows for adding more panels & at a good price & with a readout of battery voltage, solar voltage & solar amps coming in. Note that the ad says that the teperature sensor available for an extra $30 shuts off charging if the battery overheats. I am unsure if this is correct or not. If it is, it is not the same as temperature compensation - which alters the charging voltage according to battery temperature. It may however be a statement resulting from the advertiser’s lack of understanding.

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SOLAR-REGULATOR-30A-12-VOLT-30AMP-PANEL-CHARGE-CARAVAN-BOAT-4WD-CAMPING-freeship-/271564507972?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item3f3a818b44&_uhb= 1

    If buying one of these last ones, make sure once you have it to check the fuse & buy a spare to carry with you. A mate spent ages trying to work out why his one suddenly started doing odd things after using it for a couple of years. Eventually he was told to replace the fuse & all was well again. (More expensive/better regulators will have auto reset, rather than a fuse, the real cheapies are easily ‘fried’ in certain circumstances).

    EDIT. The Suntrans that Mudski bought also seems a reasonable compromise. It is a copy of the Steca PR2020 ($190), which is a copy of the BP GCR.(or vice versa). I have the Steca version which has done a good job for me. It does have temperature compensation, although only in the regulator itself. My one has always read 0.3v under battery voltage, even though mounted close to the batteries with sufficienly thic cable (i.e. Voltage drop between batteries & reg not the issue). This underreading has always been 100% consistent, so is not something I have any concerns about....... just means there is always slightly more in the battery than what the regulator readout is telling me.
    Last edited by Cuppa; 2nd August 2014 at 11:50 AM.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, heaps of easy access storage, 240v, 3” Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2” lift, 3900kg GVM upgrade, second glovebox, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697's (now Toyo RT's), Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, Icom 450 CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 180 litre fuel in two tanks (approx 1200km range) 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    In light of ET’s post (made whilst I was still writing) some clarification is needed, lest our posts combined confuse.

    The main aspect where I differ with ET is in my recommendation for a PWM regulator.

    The reason for this is that I believe that to get a good quality MPPT reg as ET describes would mean spending as much (& probably more) than the cost of the panel. I stand to be corrected on this, prices for quality may have dropped since I last looked. However if I am correct, spending the extra on another panel would give better returns than spending it on the regulator.

    All MPPT regs are PWM, (Pulse Width Modulation this is a far more accurate ‘electronic version’ of the crude on/off switching found in the very cheap regs).
    The MPPT function is in addition to this. ET suggests that this can make a difference of 12 to 15% going into your batteries during peak solar input (middle of the day).

    Those percentages are consistent with my understanding (as opposed to the 30% claimed by some manufacturers) BUT, & it is a qualified but, because it is based not on my first hand experience, but on the experience of technically qualified folk I know who have used top shelf MPPT regulators (BlueSky) ‘on the road’ & across the world over a period of years & kept logs, that it is at either end of the day & in less than optimum solar conditions where these ‘extra percentages’ are seen. In reality an extra 15% of not very much .... is not very much...... but better than nothing. I have doubts about the usefulness in average Australian conditions. Usefulness in the UK (for example) is much higher. Consequently, with the exception of allowing for the use of cheaper, higher voltage panels, I see MPPT as more of a marketing gimmick than a real world improvement over PWM only regulators.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, heaps of easy access storage, 240v, 3” Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2” lift, 3900kg GVM upgrade, second glovebox, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697's (now Toyo RT's), Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, Icom 450 CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 180 litre fuel in two tanks (approx 1200km range) 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
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    I've used Morningstar regulators for over 10 years and they have been excellent. Have one 30A controlling the 200 watts of solar on the CSU.
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    Thanks Guys,
    Really appreciate the good feedback,
    Cheers
    Tonks
    2004 GU111 4.2 TURBO WAGON, 2" OME SUSPENSION, 33" MTZ's, 3" BEAUDESERT EXHAUST, ARB ROOF RACK, ARB AWNING, BLACK WIDOW DRAW SYSTEM & CARGO BARRIER, DUAL BATTERIES, 12,000lb WINCH, GME UHF, LIGHT FORCE XGT SPOTTIES, BERRIMA DIESEL TUNE.

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    I pretty much agree with Cuppa, if you get an MPPT reg make sure it is a genuine MPPT.

    I use an MPPT on my camping panels as I like to get as much juice as I can when I can.

    In all other applications where the panels are floating, not operating anywhere near max output or just doing maintenance charging etc then PWM is more than adequate

    The main issue is that a 1 line question can generate a 30 page answer as there are so many variables
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    I’m told that even genuine MPPT regs vary in how good they are. It is apparently dependent upon the algorithms used to do the calculations they use. Some work better than others. Generally the more you pay the better you get, mainly because more time has gone into the design & programming.

    If cost was secondary I would choose quality MPPT over quality non MPPT. However I am quite happy to have a ‘balanced’ non MPPT system which has brought the batteries to float by early afternoon each day. If I had insufficient solar to replace what had been drawn from them during every 24 hour cycle, then having a system capable of putting as much as possible in would become more important. In those circumstances the aim would be to extend a stay at camp rather than to have a system capable of being sustainable indefinitely.

    As it is I have 3 systems, each with different regs, two PWM (Steca PR2020 & Morningstar Tristar 45) & one MPPT Redarc BCDC1240. All are ‘balanced’ systems which I generally expect to be floating between mid day & 2pm, if not earlier. The one which seems to do best in low light conditions is actually the Steca one, but this has to do with the Solarex panels used with it. The ‘Morningstar system has all Kyocera panels, & the ‘Redarc system’ has a mix of ebay sourced panels. The older Solarex panels will start charging shortly after dawn, whereas all the others can be up to 90 minutes later before they start charging. The early charging Solarex (2 x 60w @24v) might be pushing 0.5A into the batteries for an hour & a half (equivalent of 3 ah @ 12v) whilst nothing is going into the other systems. Not huge figures, just more variables! The batteries in the two non MPPT systems (both in our bus) are now over 8 years old & giving good service. I keep thinking they must kark it soon, but they just keep on keeping on.

    Once again intended usage & preparedness to compromise are the major factors which must dictate the chosen setup. Unfortunately it is all to common for the opposite to be the case.... frequently a cause of disappointment & frustration.
    Last edited by Cuppa; 2nd August 2014 at 06:02 PM.

    2006 4.2TDi ex-Telstra Remote area Camper. 425w roof mounted solar, 360Ah Aux batts, BCDC1240, Onboard hot & cold pressurised & filtered water, (25 litre hot water calorifier), ARB fridge, ARB freezer, Built in kitchen, heaps of easy access storage, 240v, 3” Genie exhaust + dynotune, 2” lift, 3900kg GVM upgrade, second glovebox, ROH Blaktrak steel wheels, Bridgestone D697's (now Toyo RT's), Redarc gauges/pillarpod, Hema HX-1, Icom 450 CB, dual rear view cameras, Onboard 30amp Victron mains charger, second glovebox, dual seat conversion, TPMS, Boss PX7 onboard air with 9 litre tank, 350w inverter, Steel bullbar, Harrop Eaton diff lock (front), Warn winch, Snorkel, Dual spares , 160 litre water tank, 180 litre fuel in two tanks (approx 1200km range) 2010 Tvan Tanami. (incl another 70 litre water tank) with matching wheels/tyres (& 3rd spare)
    A Nomadic Life (Blog)

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