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Thread: National Parks Open For Logging, Thanks! Tony Abbot

  1. #21
    Patrol Freak BillsGU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppa View Post
    I’m sorry BillsGU, but I just don’t get it. How is opening up the ’saved bits’ of our country a great leap forward. Most if not all here like to get out into the bush, it’s the reason most have a 4wd, but is geting out into the bush about enjoying the bush for what it is, or just to ‘conquer’ rough tracks & feel like a ‘hero'?
    A simple question, would it be as enjoyable if those tracks were lined with concrete buildings rather than ‘bush’? I think most of us would answer “no”. Ok we aren’t taking about loggers replacing trees with concrete buildings, but the point I’m making is that there is something unique & valuable about our bush & I doubt that most would want to lose it.
    If we can agree that we don’t want to lose what we love, then we have to value & protect it from those who wish to profit without care or conscience.
    The arguments are not about whether we care about losing what we love, but about how much we can afford to lose & without changing our behaviours. Suggesting that allowing logging to take place because it might open up some 4wd tracks is like removing most of the food from the shelves of our shops & saying it’s a good thing to do because t will make the aisles wider. Wide aisles might seem very attractive, but who will care once we are hungry?

    Australia is very special, even though we have lost huge tracts of bush over the past couple of centuries we still have extensive areas of bush left. It’s not like other parts of the world like the UK & much of Europe where the little bits of remaining woodland fit neatly between the man made. I recall the first time I stood up on an Australian bluff & could see nothing but trees for as far as I could see. It blew me away, I had never had that experience before. If we take that for granted believing we have plenty to spare, Tony & his corporate plunderer mates will do something about that. The National parks are the Jewels in the Australian crown & we should all fight to keep them. Robo’s last post made me think when he wrote "The trees cleared to replace with the ones they want Is killing off countless native species flora & fauna.
    Species that have taken thousands if not millions of yrs to develop and entitled to life just as we are.
    Not much diversity left only what they want to harvest. gee that’s got to be nice on the eye.”
    It seems reminiscent of the ’supermarket culture’. Just to take one example. Apples. I recall as a child that there were numerous varieties of apple, some good for cooking, some just for eating, all with their own unique flavour or texture. I just 40 or so years most are no longer generally available except to those who really care to grow their own ‘heritage’ varieties. Our kids might be forgiven for believing there have only ever been a handful of varieties, the ones that can be found in the supermarkets, Granniy Smith, Royal Gala & one or two more. Translate this to the rapidly reducing diversity in our forests, extinction after extinction. Animals, plants & trees. Dunno about you but when I get out in the bush on those tracks it’s what those tracks take me through that make it worthwhile, & if having tracks closed as a means of preserving that diversity I can live with that.
    Anyway if the loggers get into a park, existing tracks will be closed until logging is completed & IF opened afterwards the sights will not be pretty.

    I’m not specifically aiming at you BillsGU, but the common call amongst 4wd’ers to ‘open tracks’ is imho often a selfish means of shooting themselves in the foot. Lets look after country first & enjoy it second. The alternative is to destroy what we love without understanding what we are doing.

    Bit of a ramble, but I hope it makes some sense to someone.

    Cuppa
    We would have to agree to disagree.

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  3. #22
    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillsGU View Post
    We would have to agree to disagree.
    That’s a shame but if it avoids ‘falling out’ with each other probably the way to go.

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  4. #23
    Rotaredom NissanGQ4.2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppa View Post
    I’m not specifically aiming at you BillsGU, but the common call amongst 4wd’ers to ‘open tracks’ is imho often a selfish means of shooting themselves in the foot. Lets look after country first & enjoy it second. The alternative is to destroy what we love without understanding what we are doing.

    Cuppa
    Makes sense to a degree but I guess I'm also selfish, I am literally surrounded by the Blue Mountains National Park yet there is no legal and what I would call 4wd tracks within maybe a 2 hour drive from me. I would say every track that is open within the BMNP is graded for tourist using 2wd only vehicles / bush walkers and photographers and while I do enjoy bush walking and photography I also enjoy four wheel driving and dirt bike riding.

    I do enjoy being surrounded by the bush and do grow some of my own veggies and have chickens for fresh eggs but I would not call myself a greenie / environmentalist, while I don't condone ripping tree's out just for the sake of a quick buck with very stringent managment believe opening it up for everyone to enjoy would be beneficial.

    And I'm sure a lot will disagree with my believe that as much as everyone believes they are doing there part looking after our bushland just remember we all live in houses, work in factories, drive on roads ( the list is endless ) that was once countless native species of flora / fauna and native animals.

    Give it time, NP and State forests will be no longer houses and roads will pave the way, its the price we will pay for having no limitation on the amount of babies a family can have and a very lax immigration system.

    SAD BUT TRUE

    Will also have to agree to disagree
    Last edited by NissanGQ4.2; 7th March 2014 at 07:05 PM.
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  6. #24
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    There has actually been some very valid points from both sides of the fence on this thread so far.

    In general, most people who enjoy the bush are conservationists to some degree, whether they know it or not. One point that does annoy me though about the group of Greens from the very far Left, is their tendency to lock everyone out of an area in the interest of conservation. I believe that there should and can be a well balanced policy where people such as us, can access our National Parks and Reserves in our 4WD's and enjoy the place. Obviously that is a bit off track from the logging argument and Mr Abbott's recent decisions, but it comes back to what directly affects me. I want to conserve those and other areas, but I also want to enjoy them, not just know that they will be saved to be viewed on a postcard and I should be happy in the knowledge that they are saved.

    What directly affects the people in Tasmania, is obviously the unemployment rate, and being able to put food on the table. When things are tough in these areas, unfortunately attitudes to conservation change. It is simple survival. With the Highest rates of unemployment in Australia, and an election coming up, it is no surprise that the Gov't is looking at what might make people happy, and thus vote for them. More than half of Tasmania will still be World Heritage Forrest, and having prospects of a job, and a dollar in your pocket, means a hell of a lot to those people who don't have one when it comes time to vote.
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  7. #25
    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    I understand what you are saying Ben, & agree with much of it.
    However you would think that any government worth a pinch of sh*t would act in the long term best interests of it’s people rather than playing cheap politics to get votes for themselves. But there I go being a simple idealist again! What really annoys me is that the cheap politics are not only about getting votes for themselves. It is more complex. Sure it’s about the votes, but it’s also about creating community disharmony & division. With the community fearful about their jobs, immigration, law & order etc & at each others throats it makes it far easier for the government to smooth the path for the corporate plunderers. They are encouraging & fostering the ‘Me’ approach over the ‘Us’ approach. I’ve seen it before during the Thatcher years in the UK. Some come out of it well, many do not, but the hope of getting lucky draws votes fom both the likely & unlikely.

    The issues around logging protected areas & 4wd access to protected areas are two different issues.
    I think you express moderate views that perhaps the majority of folk might support. An improved balance between protection & 4wd access.
    As 4wd’ers I would consider it logical that we support the ongoing protection that National Parks offer, whilst lobbying for greater appropriate access.
    Very different to letting the loggers in in the hope that when they are finished that we might have greater access to then degraded & denuded country.

    Although the ‘dollar in the pocket’ is a great motivator when it comes to getting votes, using such tactics is short term & unfair of a government. Such tactics only last until the next change of government. What is needed is long term job security & a responsible government would be doing what it could to facilitate sustainable & secure employment for it’s constituents, not playing them as fodder to bring short term huge profits to the big companies, many of whom are foreign owned. Seems they are still pushing the ‘trickle down economics’ model. A model that continues to offer hope but has never been shown to actually work. It is the rich who get richer. Generally speaking the working man does not, or if he does it is at the expense of job security. You only have to look at the mining boom jobs to know this. In a few short years a generation have come to see this style of employment as the norm. As the boom slows , so we see workers being treated less & less well. We need to understood that these companies are not like the companies of old, which accepted that they had a responsibility for the welfare of their workers. Todays companies care only about paying their shareholders dividends & don’t give a stuff about the fact that Fred their employee can feed his family today but won’t be able to next month or the month after that, or that they wrecked a piece of country before moving on elsewhere leaving Fred out of work. Our current government is on the side of the abusers, but telling us they are on our side.
    Possibly getting off topic, but for me it’s all part of the same picture. Trashing our country, short term profit, abusive work practices, increasing divide between haves & have nots, rising unemployment, increased blaming & consequent laws that can affect our freedoms, removal of funding for any organisations which might be critical of the government or the actions of it’s corporate puppeteers, et etc etc.

    If folks haven’t seen the Scott Ludlam speech it is well worth watching, even if you don’t agree with what he has to say. He really lays out just what he sees our government is getting up to. I’m not a member of any political party & never have been, but what he has to say certainly fits with how I’m seeing things.



    Moderators, I appreciate that this thread is ‘political’ & I would understand if you saw the need to close it down. However I would ask that you might recognise that the discussion is to date respectful between those contributing, & request that it be allowed to continue as long as it remains so.

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    Dribble Master Clunk's Avatar
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    I liked Thatcher, she had bigger balls than all the other idiots that followed


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    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clunk View Post
    I liked Thatcher, she had bigger balls than all the other idiots that followed
    Maybe but I think she did an awful lot of damage to the community which it still hasn’t recovered from. Her & Reagan were largely responsible for the popularity of ‘economic rationalism’ & ‘user pays’ around the western world, neither of which have ever borne out their promise to any but the ‘haves’. The UK has a bigger ‘underclass’ now than it has ever had before. The ‘working poor’ as well as the unemployed.
    I wouldn’t dream of comparing Tony Abbott to Maggie. Like her or hate her, Maggie was certainly strong. Tony is only a political opportunist who was in the right place at the right time. One thing that Maggie had was ‘vision’, not one I shared, but it was part of her strength. Vision is a rare commodity among prime ministers, we seem to be plagued here with politicians rather than leaders.

    Did you live in the UK during the Thatcher years?

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    Dribble Master Clunk's Avatar
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    I did, I was there from 76 to '03...... And that my friend is about as political as I'm going to get


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  14. #29
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    Cuppa, good points. Yes, I think perhaps your view is more idealistic, but that doesn't mean I (and plenty of other moderate folk) don't agree with your ideals. The forests are one of those topics where idealism clashes with 'realism' (maybe not the best word) sometimes. Others might be the Great Barrier Reef, The Kimberley's, Cape York even... etc. etc.

    Ideally we would vote in Leaders who actually cared about the communities, but I can't remember a politician, besides maybe crazy Bob Katter, who was all about the community. Australia has been very poorly lead for a long time now, no matter what the party they came from. And Politicians with short sightedness, tend to identify these 'dollar in the pocket' issues and leverage them for easy votes.

    At risk of throwing in a broad personal political observation, I think the previous Labour Gov't sold small business a dud, and the current Coaltion Gov't is doing what they normally do, and trying to win votes from this sector. Labour was tighter with the Greens, and with this reversed now, the ideals in the conservation areas, may well be attacked for some time to come. I think the Tasmanian Forests could well become a hot topic again, if not a 'battleground' over ideals.
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