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Thread: National Parks Open For Logging, Thanks! Tony Abbot

  1. #11
    Moderator MudRunnerTD's Avatar
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    in a previous life i worked for the DSE (Department of Sustainability and Environment) and i was a Saw Log Grader in the Logging Industry. I was on contract and was paid according the quantity. I was paid well.

    In 2002 the Victorian Govt made an election promise to cease all logging in the Otways after the election and i went looking for another job. I found a Career and am happy. And Lucky.

    So the things i learned while working at the front line...

    Firstly, i am an environmentalist. i struggled to start with even applying for the position but came to terms with it. My role was to Grade the quality of the timber going in to the saw mills to determine the Royalty paid for each piece, The computer checking system assigned at random 25% of ALL loads coming out of the Otways to be "Check Loads" for which i was responsible for walking, measuring and grading Every part of the load being delivered. Every log. By Hand with a Tape measure. Does not get much more intimate that that. Personally climbed on and walked and measures 25% of the entire harvest coming out of the Otways in each harvest season.

    If i found any load that had been felled badly causing "Shake' Damage i would report it and the Feller would have his ticket suspended pending investigation and testing of his technique.

    My Job. Keep the Bastards Honest! I cant stand them back up, but i sure as hell can make sure that they were not wasted. I measured 25% and my grading was then applied to 100% of the harvest. every log i graded counted for 4 logs in the harvest. I was Tough and graded literally.

    my other contract with the DSE that ran concurrently was as an inspector at the Pulp Mill. In Uniform i sat at the weighbridge at the large Pulp Mill in Geelong and waited for loads to come from all over the state. With a Very Keen eye i could walk around a truck and spot a Saw Log in a Pulp load and have the truck load set aside for grading. Remember i know Noone in the bush, No Friends there. if i found a Saw log in a Pulp load then i would write it up and the Log grader in the Bush would loose his ticket for 10 days. second offence, permanently. by the end of me doing that for 2 years there was not many saw logs going to pulp! Plenty in the beginning though.

    Sorry, to the point. Things i Know.

    Statistics.

    Only 5% of the Otways National park is ear marked for Hard Wood saw log harvest. Then.
    Of that 5%, only 1% of 5% (0.005% of total) was ear marked for harvest Each year on a 100 year rotation.

    "Clear Fell Logging" is the Safest and most sustainable way to log an area. Prior to releasing a Coupe to the Logging companies the DSE Forrest Officers would walk the Coupe sq/m by sq/m harvesting seed pods from the trees in that coupe and identifying any "Habitat" trees that would be marked with a ribbon and must be left standing in the clear fell coupe. By Clear Felling the coupe would not be left with a loan tree that may cause risk to the general public of limb dropping an the whole site would regenerate and a similar rate using the replanting of seed pods taken from the same coupe pre logging.

    That Gentlemen is Sustainable Logging at its best.
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  4. #12
    Patrol Guru rkinsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy's Accessories View Post
    See I'm in 2 minds.
    I'm against touching the heritage listed stuff. That's for sure..

    But were I work we cut down one tree and plant 5.. In the end 2 of the 5 will mature but only 1 cut down again.

    We mainly do plantation logging, so like farming cereal crops..

    I think if done right there will be no issue.
    Hi Westy,

    You are correct. If it is managed correctly it is manageble.

    There is a logging company in the north of NSW (around Ballina I think) that has quite a few parcles that they log. However there is one patch that they have been logging for 100 years and its only 1 hectare in size. All hardwood.

    Cheers,

    Rob
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    Patrol God threedogs's Avatar
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    So what your saying is Tree have feelings too. he he
    well said MR, We need wood and need to be smart on how we use it.
    There are heaps of different recycled timbers around ,shame the price is so high
    for timber that has already been processed, or just de-nailed
    http://www.shivermetimbers.com.au/?g...FQYepAodmloA_A
    Last edited by threedogs; 7th March 2014 at 10:27 AM.
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    Patrol God BigRAWesty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillsGU View Post
    Didn't realise there were old growth forests in South Oz. I thought it was all plantation.
    Yea here in sa it is but we also own a Mill in Tassie.
    Cheers
    Kallen Westbrook

  7. #15
    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    I don’t believe there is any manageable way of logging old growth & natural forests. There is simply too much greed involved. The days of pick a tree here & there, leaving the rest are largely gone. Economics comes before the environment. The environment has never been fully valued, the Abbot government is hell bent on devaluing what has been hard fought for. More profit can be made in the short term by logging natural forest than by creating & harvesting plantation timber. Plantation timber has it’s own problems, mainly a result of huge areas of monoculture rather than being mixed woodlands. I live in the middle of 1000’s of hectares of forest which is a mix of plantation (Pine & Bluegum) & native woodand & have observed first hand the behaviour of the loggers over the years we have lived here. It is very obvious that they have little to no concern for the environment EXCEPT where there activity is on view to the general public. What the public don’t generally see is a very different story. Clearfelling of both plantation & native woodland, destroying waterways, leaving a huge amount of wastage strewn across the ground. Compare this to areas that are seen by tourist coaches etc & you see the areas of native woodand logged around & left untouched, great care taken to ensure no damage is done to waterways, & more of the timber that is cut down removed & the remainder placed into neat windrows for burning.

    I come from a country family who managed woodland in the UK, coppicing etc, the same that has been done for centuries. That was true sustainability, so yes it can be done, but not on the industrial scale that occurs here. The National parks are environmental refuges & should remain sacrosanct.

    Listen to the timber companies (in my area primarily Hancock Plantations) & you would think them environmental saints, but the public ’spin’ is very different to behaviour on the ground. It’s a corporate business aimed at maximising profit, care for the environment only matters for public relations purposes. I have no doubt that those they employ to carry out ‘environmental care’, whilst remaining loyal to, & speaking well of the company, are folk with a genuine belief in looking after the environment, but their influence within the company is very limited.

    I have signed the petition linked to in the OP, & encourage others to do likewise. Once it’s gone it’s gone.
    Last edited by Cuppa; 7th March 2014 at 12:34 PM.

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    Exactly Cuppa.
    once it's gone its gone.
    Now I'm no environmentalist.
    My Dad sent me the link and story and I thought some here may be interested.

    But the story of It's just a tree and we need timber isn't justifiable compared to the damage being done.

    The trees cleared to replace with the ones they want Is killing off countless native species flora & fauna.
    Species that have taken thousands if not millions of yrs to develop and entitled to life just as we are.
    Not much diversity left only what they want to harvest. gee that's got to be nice on the eye.

    Thinking why do they want to go into the national parks proberly no one goes into anyway.
    You can bet they are talking virgin forest that no-one lives near by to see what would be going on.
    The old saying out sight out of mind.

    And if I read Mudrunner correctly they only cut something like .5% percent of whats readily available to em now.
    so what's the need to go and attack virgin forest.
    I'll tell you why, get in strip it out and do nothing to fix any damage, because no ones around close enough to see.
    maximum damage = maximum profit.
    prices won't come down, if it did gov collects less tax, yeah right thats going to happen.
    EG typical reason petrol prices are never capped like bread and milk.
    Its not the first time this gov has tried to hide the truth,stop the boats means don't publish how many turn up.

    I know this sound like a I'm ranting on, but stop and think how many time over the space of your life have you heard x amount of species have disappeared from our plant and in the last 20 or so yrs documented the amount is accelerating faster then ever before.
    once it's gone its gone.!!
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    Patrol Freak BillsGU's Avatar
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    ................... Anyway, as a keen 4 wheel driver that actually likes to get out in the bush, I see this as a great leap forward. It may mean the end of track closures and may even see some of the closed tracks reopen. You never know, common sense and proper management may prevail over the greenbattering we have had over a number of years.

    Cut a tree down - lock up the carbon in a new table or a new house - replace it with another tree - absorb more carbon if that is what you believe - make sure it is managed properly - what could be more beneficial to us all?

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    Legendary happygu's Avatar
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    What happens to the trees when an area that has been locked up and untouched gets burnt by fire ..... it is then all gone anyway ....and it seems to be happening more frequently now that so many vast areas are locked up.

    I am by no means slash and burn, but it makes no sense to lock up a resource that may be gone tomorrow anyway. Logging needs to happen, but it needs good guys in the field to make sure it is sustainable and that all resources are well managed
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    Patrol Freak BillsGU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happygtu View Post
    What happens to the trees when an area that has been locked up and untouched gets burnt by fire ..... it is then all gone anyway ....and it seems to be happening more frequently now that so many vast areas are locked up.

    I am by no means slash and burn, but it makes no sense to lock up a resource that may be gone tomorrow anyway. Logging needs to happen, but it needs good guys in the field to make sure it is sustainable and that all resources are well managed
    Too right. Next time you drive up to Mt Hotham look at all the dead alpine ash. They won't regenerated as they take about 11 years to mature. Due to the wonderful "management" they have had over the last few decades, successive super hot fires have not only killed the trees but the immature trees could not seed. The "managers" had to harvest seeds from around Mansfield and aerial seed the Hotham area. Hopefully the future will see a bit more common sense, more cool burn offs (as has happened for thousands of years) and better management. Locking it all up has been tried and failed. Lets move on.

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    Travelling Podologist Cuppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillsGU View Post
    ................... Anyway, as a keen 4 wheel driver that actually likes to get out in the bush, I see this as a great leap forward. It may mean the end of track closures and may even see some of the closed tracks reopen. You never know, common sense and proper management may prevail over the greenbattering we have had over a number of years.

    Cut a tree down - lock up the carbon in a new table or a new house - replace it with another tree - absorb more carbon if that is what you believe - make sure it is managed properly - what could be more beneficial to us all?
    I’m sorry BillsGU, but I just don’t get it. How is opening up the ’saved bits’ of our country a great leap forward. Most if not all here like to get out into the bush, it’s the reason most have a 4wd, but is geting out into the bush about enjoying the bush for what it is, or just to ‘conquer’ rough tracks & feel like a ‘hero'?
    A simple question, would it be as enjoyable if those tracks were lined with concrete buildings rather than ‘bush’? I think most of us would answer “no”. Ok we aren’t taking about loggers replacing trees with concrete buildings, but the point I’m making is that there is something unique & valuable about our bush & I doubt that most would want to lose it.
    If we can agree that we don’t want to lose what we love, then we have to value & protect it from those who wish to profit without care or conscience.

    The arguments tend not to be about whether we care about losing what we love, but about how much we can afford to lose & without changing our behaviours.

    Suggesting that allowing logging to take place because it might open up some 4wd tracks is like removing most of the food from the shelves of our shops & saying it’s a good thing to do because it will make the aisles wider. Wide aisles might seem very attractive, but who will care how wide they are once we are hungry?

    Australia is very special, even though we have lost huge tracts of bush over the past couple of centuries we still have extensive areas of bush left. It’s not like other parts of the world like the UK & much of Europe where the little bits of remaining woodland fit neatly between the man made. I recall the first time I stood up on an Australian bluff & could see nothing but trees for as far as I could see. It blew me away, I had never had that experience before I came here. If we take it for granted that we have plenty to spare, Tony & his corporate plunderer mates will do something about that quick smart. The National parks are the jewels in the Australian crown & we should all fight to keep them.

    Robo’s last post made me think when he wrote “The trees cleared to replace with the ones they want Is killing off countless native species flora & fauna. Species that have taken thousands if not millions of yrs to develop and entitled to life just as we are. Not much diversity left only what they want to harvest. gee that’s got to be nice on the eye.” It seems reminiscent to me of the ’supermarket culture’. Just to take one example. Apples. I recall as a child that there were numerous varieties of apple, some good for cooking, some just for eating, all with their own unique flavour or texture. In just 40 or so years most are no longer generally available except to those who really care enough to search our to grow their own rare ‘heritage’ varieties.
    Our kids might be forgiven for believing there have only ever been a handful of varieties, the ones that can be found in the supermarkets, Granny Smith, Royal Gala & one or two more. Translate this to the rapidly reducing diversity in our forests, extinction after extinction. Animals, plants & trees. Dunno about you but when I get out in the bush on those tracks it’s what those tracks take me through that make it worthwhile, & if having tracks closed as a means of preserving that diversity I can live with that. I’ll walk through it, or enjoy going elsewhere, happy in the knowledge that there areas protected from being used as an ‘industrial resource’.

    Besides, if the loggers get into a park, existing tracks will be closed until logging is completed & IF opened afterwards the sights will not be pretty. Ok for those who only see the bush as a series of bog holes & obstacles...... but certainly not a pretty sight.

    I’m not specifically aiming my coments specifically at you BillsGU, the call amongst 4wd’ers to ‘open tracks’ is common, but is imho, often a selfish means of shooting themselves in the foot. Lets look after country first & enjoy it second. The alternative is to destroy what we love without understanding what we are doing. Lets keep the really special bits special, even if that means just knowing they are there. Who knows what we will be destroying if we let them go.Could be far more valuable than timber.

    Bit of a ramble, but I hope it makes some sense to someone.

    Cuppa
    Last edited by Cuppa; 7th March 2014 at 05:10 PM.

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