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Thread: OldMav technical information thread!

  1. #11
    Smart like tractor Ben-e-boy's Avatar
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    Ok. I have changed the upper arm measurment which should give more lateral support Later in the day I will hop under the ute and go over with the tape measure and do some double checking and see what I can come up with.

    I dont reall want to have the lower links chassis mount lower then the chassis as the location is where I belly out on some of the big steps I usually drive on, so there is compromise #1 and a decent one really.

    Back to the beginning of all this, I went so see an engineer in Geebung about getting my long arms, a torsion bar style swaybar and extended shock mounts engineered. Which he said I could do, but me being me got home and though if I can get this done why not a 4 link, and if I can get the shock towers done why not get rid of the spring perches and coil over the rear etc and it all started compounding from there as it does

    Now incase I cannot get a 4 link legal my now second option is to go with the original option ( if that makes sense), and keep the long arms a swaybar and coil overs

    So this leads me to another set of questions.

    Panhard bar. I undestand that it determines the roll centre. But am I correct in saying that the higher the roll centre in relation to the COG means the shifting forces from cornering or offcamber need to be greater in order for it roll but inturn in say an offcamber situation high speed cornering less warning that you are about to roll over, and more body roll with a lower RC in relation to COG, and with a lower RC can the subsequent body roll be tuned out with good damping and sway bars?


    Cheers
    96 GQ coil/Cab
    08 G6eT


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  3. #12
    SPAMINATOR growler2058's Avatar
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    IF YA DONT GET STUCK YA AINT TRYIN HARD ENOUGH........OR YA TOOK THE CHICKEN TRACK
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  5. #13
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    Yes the Panhard bar controls RC but because it moves in a odd arc on cycle and articulation at speed if travel is great it causes odd handling characteristics especially on the off side. This is usually not a big issue if it can be held at flatter angles. This is obviously constrained by the drag link on the front as bump steer is something you just cannot compromise at speed but it can be improved dramatically. On the rear is can be made flatter or near level but its length is compromised by shocks being fitted behind the diff. To fixed this put shocks infront of the diff so a very much longer panhard bar can be used. The 4 link addresses this issue with link control so angle change is a lot less so axis angle changes little in comparison. Roll centre to COG does help roll resistance due to weight transfer. but this isn't exponentially equal to the separation so there is diminishing returns as it gets higher. As I understand the concept RC height to COG causes resistance or slows weight transfer from COG but it doesn't really get to a point then extra weight gets transferred so it tips quickly it just slows the process so you can use springs and shocks to adjust the roll speed or swerve speed to a level your like so again how it feels to you. Sway bars are a thing you use because they fix a roll compromise you think is a issue. Race cars use these bars to keep the suspension within the ideal design geometry but also to make the car a lot more responsive to swerve loads or changing loads. For us it can help COG issues on off camber situations but really it is very minor, unless the roll centre is below the axle.

    Until next post lol when I have more time.. I have written this in a hurry.
    Last edited by OldMav; 23rd February 2014 at 07:40 PM.

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  7. #14
    Smart like tractor Ben-e-boy's Avatar
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    That makes more sence...

    I was planning on installing the coilovers on the top of the axle housing, so if I stick with the current setup should be able to to add 80-100mm on the rear panhard.
    If I start rearranging the panhards will I need to beef up the chassis mounts.

    How will handling be affected if the RC's are not equal heights?

    Cheers
    96 GQ coil/Cab
    08 G6eT


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  9. #15
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    first coil overs are very nice because you can dial in height with a certain amount of progressive rated loads, But to get the most out of them they really do need to be at the axle end or close to it. on the GU/GQ this is difficult to do without chassis mods so to be honest it will take a bit to tune your coil overs even then in my one only experience with them and some research you loose the progressive benefit not having them near the axle end. Its a compromise of course but still may be viable.

    The panhard bar has no different loads long or short higher or lower than where it is now but if the axle end is raised it will need beefing up due to leaver loads. The chassis end is ok but the comp boys do brake them.

    RC is a funny thing at different heights it can be noticed without sway bars the lower end is not as stiff on corners its not unnerving but is apparent. But if roll axis is the same it seems to lesson the effect because the car is a lot more balanced and feels solid on the road or dirt. And doesn't do any of those funny dances across the corrugated road on corners which the high lifted patrol is famous for.

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  11. #16
    Smart like tractor Ben-e-boy's Avatar
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    Hmmmm ok.

    So , seeing that the panhards are chassis mounted to the same side of the patrol, would it make any differnce if they are chassis mounted on opposite sides?
    96 GQ coil/Cab
    08 G6eT


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  13. #17
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    Its about balance Ben a car has to be predictable when you drive it, a good car does every thing slowly or progressively but still maintaining response and feel. I did mention the off side before with panhard bars they over steer corning into the bar and quite a bit less away from the bars direction, having the panhard bar on the front it needs to be the same way other wise it feels odd and unbalanced. So for our patrol the lower long arms kit it is said they fix the geometry well to be honest they don't do much for geometry except lower the very compromised values slightly but what they do is reduce the over steer of the rear off side so it feels more like the front so more balanced. For our patrol the top arms are the problem they are stupidly way to short for our suspension travel lengthening the lower arms just slows down the handling because the change values get slower as the suspension travels, but pinion angle change is greater, this is the compromise for long arms. The top arms are a compromise for Nissan as they had to fit rear seats and foot wells into the wagon hence the short top arms. But for the travel they assumed it had, this is fine at their STD set height. Your ute doesn't have the back seat compromise so Nissan should of had longer top arms for the ute but this is a production cost so would never be considered.

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  15. #18
    Smart like tractor Ben-e-boy's Avatar
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    Thanks Pete, that about rounds off my panhard questions, they were a big grey area for me.
    96 GQ coil/Cab
    08 G6eT


  16. #19
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    All good Ben happy to help.

  17. #20
    Moderator MudRunnerTD's Avatar
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    Hey Pete,

    Thanks for all your input here mate, appreciate your involvement and knowledge. I am thinking that we might need to have a rethink on this thread though as there is some great stuff being presented but it could get lost in the soup once this thread is 20 pages spread across TD42, Suspension, Ratios, Geometry. 1 Big thread is not going to help the Search function at all hey

    Need to have a bit of a think about some structure to get the best advantage from your input mate. Got a couple of ideas and it will probably involve cutting this thread up a little and building something. Dont be surprised if something like that happens. Your input on how best to do that would be welcomed here or via pm to mate.

    Cheers Darren.
    Its a Nissan! =====> Its a Keeper!! ....... Got a TD42 in it BONUS!! ....... I'm a lucky bugger! I've got 2 of em!
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