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Thread: OldMav technical information thread!

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up OldMav technical information thread!

    G'day folks,

    I thought i would set-up a dedicated technical information thread to OldMav (Peter)

    So that OldMav is not pulled from pillar to post regarding technical advised, i thought it would be easier if i set-up a dedicated technical information Q & A thread. This way you Lounge Lizards can ask Peter a question and when Peter is ready and available he can get back to you on this thread.

    Having someone of the caliber of OldMav on this forum from time to time, is a fantastic result for the forum members. As previously stated, i have spoken to Peter on several occasions regarding advice with my GU TD42 turbo diesel build and I have also perused many of OldMav's extremely informative articles and advise on his Patrol 4x4 forum over the years.

    Once again Peter thanks for sharing your time and well researched knowledge with us!
    Kind regards,

    RLI
    Last edited by PMC; 27th February 2014 at 10:37 AM.
    The halls been rented the bands been paid, time to see you dance!

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    GUtsy ute (28th February 2014), mudski (18th February 2014), Robo (18th February 2014), Winnie (18th February 2014)

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    Patrol God bigguwesty's Avatar
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    I think we could use a sub forum, with different threads in it.
    In one thread it'll all get lost..
    Cheers
    Kallen Westbrook

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    MudRunnerTD (18th February 2014)

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    Paul I brought a Nissan patrol coil cab/chassis March 1990 I had ordered it 3 months earlier, back then it was impossible to buy one off the floor But when I was picking it up a youngish pretty married property owner had come into the office very upset as her husband had given her a hard time about the new Maverick cab chassis she had ordered and pickup the afternoon before. He had told her to buy a Maverick him thinking Mavs came with coil springs lol. She was crying somewhat when my uncle who owned a nissan/Ford dealership told her you cannot buy a Nissan coil CAB/ chassis without at least a 3 month wait. Mmm she had that country pretty look and I gave in and told my Uncle to swap our rigs. So I ended up with quite a few thousand dollars extra in my pocket as she brought her Maverick primary producers discounted Tax etc in those days + a bonus of 3 years Rego free lol. So I was very happy even though I had leaf springs which didn't bother me as I had some serious mods I could trial to see if it worked on leafs. I never drove my rig N/A it was pushed into the workshop and I removed the engine for a full blue print and balance. silly eh. + a turbo and, and, etc, etc.

    I am still in rebuild mods and haven't done any tuning with the new turbo GTX3071. But the KKK it replaced was always fuelled for 180rwkw about 141cc/1000 shots. I have had it at 200rwkw or a bit more but having done torsional vibration analysis back in the 90's it suggested 180 should be a safe tune before crank issues become apparent. I have always had torque in the low 700nm 690Nm area and boost at the 28 psi mark all in buy 2100 rpm. I tuned this thing to do odd accelerations but I can tell you a HSV dunnydoor looks pretty silly compared to this rig in 4 gear 80 to 120 klms or for that matter most sports cars. We will see how it goes with the new turbo. All this is about torque response not outright KW's. so the new turbo will be set up with the same sort of tune I hope.

    Fuel economy well I never really think about that as it is what it is. But remember this thing has a 12mm element so lots of fuel can be pumped if required. If my Dad drives he will consistently get 26MPG or 10.8 litres per 100 but I have never got those figures ever. I usually see 20MPG or 14's litres/100 but I have actually got 12.5 once at night and empty on the very odd time I actually drove on bitumen highway. Water injection set at 11psi and cruising at 110+klms with 10 psi and that + is a big plus.
    Last edited by OldMav; 18th February 2014 at 04:46 PM.

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    growler2058 (23rd February 2014), MudRunnerTD (24th February 2014), PMC (18th February 2014), Robo (19th February 2014), Stropp (18th February 2014), Winnie (18th February 2014)

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    I have left this forum!
    Last edited by PMC; 27th February 2014 at 10:38 AM.
    The halls been rented the bands been paid, time to see you dance!

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    Patrol Freak trekster's Avatar
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    Great bit of read that look forward to reading more in the future!


    Cheers,
    Eric.
    1998 GU RD28T: RIP
    1996 GQ RD28T: RIP 11 days later
    Hello 2012 GU CRDZD30

    Nissan winchbar + Warn, Dual Battery/Redarc, UHF and Titan rear drawers

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    Thanks Paul. I'm sure I will be asking for advise during my td42t build.
    Just read Oldmavs story. I can see my build getting expensive already.
    Last edited by mudski; 18th February 2014 at 10:11 PM.

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    Smart like tractor Ben-e-boy's Avatar
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    Pete.

    I'm going to branch away from turbo tech and move into your link suspension. Did you design it or did you just put the links where they fit.

    I have a few designs drawn up which should fit, but I have no real world experience with 4 links and how changes in the on paper figures translate into the real world.

    Cheers
    Ben
    96 GQ coil/Cab
    08 G6eT


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    Ben

    First I have designed the system. But this suspension game is all about huge compromises. The Nissan system even though it does quite well, considering it was never designed for the massive travel we seem to see many of the suspension people dial into this system. For the 200mm travel it has as standard it does ok but for anything that one would consider handling it is very sub standard if we were to compare it to say a jeep or the older live axle range rover. So with this in mind I set out what I wanted to achieve and what I considered I could compromise. I decided I want the rig to handle at highway speeds dirt/road and didn't have the the STD Nissan tell tail rear end wanders in one direction only I wanted a balanced feeling rig. to do this I need no more than -1 roll axis angle on the rear. Also I didn't want to see articulation stupid rear steer a patrol has so roll axis angle at -1 has very little rear steer. To compare a STD Nissan has about -12 degrees and a lifted 3 inch patrol has near -18 degrees on full articulation. My system is still -1 deg at full articulation so no silly rear steer.

    Next I was not after a drag car type traction and I didn't want the rear bouncing or hopping every time I tried to climb any sort of ledge or climb a hill. I wanted a bit more torsional load and weight transferred into the springs and not the links like the std patrol. so I decided on a anti squat of 65% so the rig will squat a bit on power and has less chance to hop on ledges or hill climbs. I wanted roll centres a bit high so the cornering loads would resist tilt angle so I would not need stabilizer bars for normal street use, and give a acceptable stiffness on big off camber bush driving.

    To get this much control in geometry adjustment I had to go for double triangulated link arms. The top links don't do a lot except control instant centres and hold the diff central so I had to compromise some roll axis adjustability and roll centre height because the arms have to be at about 40 degrees and need to be at about 70% of the length of the lower arms so I could keep diff pinion angle change to acceptable amount I settled for 5 degrees of change from the std 3 deg we need to match the transfer case output angle. Ok that's the basis of the rear.

    For the front we have to compromise soooo much but I wanted my roll axis angle to be the same as the rear so I had a balanced rig at highway speeds and slippy dirt road high speed stability I also wanted to dial in enough resistance so I didn't need stabilizer bars, so I have the same -1 degree roll axis. But I had to compromise instant centre height and distance but not as much as the radius arm on the STD patrol actually I am about 425% better off but not ideal and not as good as a damn !@#@#$ JEEP.
    But I have more high speed stability than a JEEP even though I am some 200mm higher ride height than a jeep. And I don't need stabilizer bars. This was my compromise not bad I think. Now for anti squat after a lot of pissing about I decided it is what it is and 53% is it. So it will be great on ledges as it will tend to make the body squat and climb unlike a patrol that just lifts the body and loose traction and usually just hops as weight is transferred into the radius arms. But I gain a lost of braking force and weight transfer onto the front axle so it could be a good think time will tell. Obviously I cannot use a triangulated 4 link on the front beside it cannot fit but also you would have bump steer to break your arms and full hydro steer is not legal. So I settled for 3 link and panhard bar. My panhard bar is a bit longer and better set angle with a small change angle than the standard patrol so I will not get the Nissan body roll steer that is so prominent when lifter to 500mm chassis to ground clearance. Also with the 3 link I have a very small diff pinion change angle so minimal uni issues for my 17.5 inch of front and rear travel. I had to compromise link separation on the front diff but I am using a forged Johnny joint with 30 degrees of twist. I have not compromised rear link length so I have very little geometry change for the 17.5 inch of travel the front link lengths are compromised a bit due to space and positions to attached the triangulated lower links around the transmission.

    Also to get this to work like I wanted I had to move my centre of gravity back some 175mm and make it a bit closer to the centre of the car so now its pretty close to the top of the gear knob in second gear. I had to move the front axle 65mm further forward than the STD coil cab but only 15mm further forward than the leaf cab. Also I had to loose 400KG's of vehicle weight hence the extensive use of aluminium including my exhaust pipe. Also the spare tyre has to be behind the tray and a storage box at the end of the tray and needs to have 20 kgs in it. lol. I needed batteries behind the cab and all the fuel and water just behind the cab so it all worked very nicely in the end with a few little painful head scratching. So you see with my rig I have compromised many things to get my suspension to my ideal set compromises. Also I have set much of this geometry with a good balance in my opinion so I have little change in rig manners with 33" or 35" tyres fitted. But the rig will have very nice manners with 33"obviously. To note my top link arms are level and the lower arms are less than 6degrees so on full droop I will not be able to have body jacking due to torque this was something I wouldn't compromise.

    Also this is my 3rd link system/air bag design on a vehicle, a SWB F100 a Range Rover and now the Maverick. The Mav system on paper is very much the best design, as so many things are just ideal with the patrol leaf chassis. also I have learnt so many things with the RR to be able to set my ideal geometry compromises. Also I didn't do any of this for suspension travel I would have been happy with 12 inch of travel like the RR but the system on the patrol was so nice it just was a free bonus, so I made it happen. If I had made travel a setting compromise I could of had 22 inches of travel with this design but my setting criteria was 12inch so the extra few inchers was a bonus without compromising my set criteria's of feeling solid, safe and stable at speed dirt or hard top..

    How good it will be only time will tell but I know for certain it will be nicer to drive than a damn JEEP.
    Last edited by OldMav; 22nd February 2014 at 11:51 PM.

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  17. #9
    Smart like tractor Ben-e-boy's Avatar
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    Thanks

    At the moment I am only thinking of the rear,mI am very happy with the hybrid arm front end. I am also happy with the long arm rear I have now but the only thing is the roll steer that bugs me, if I calculate right it has dropped to about 8 degrees even with 14 inchs of travel, but it still as an effect particulaly on off camber decents it likes to crab walk

    The goal is better high speed handling as I want to be able to pass a swerve test with 100mm of suspension lift and stability offroad.

    My 4 link is designed around 35 inch tyres and 16 inch of travel, ( 6 inch bump and10 inch droop) but I plan to build in adjustments on the upper links both at axle and chassis to suit 33's for the road and possibly 37's in the future

    One thing I have been thinking about is trying reposition the front panhard and a redesigned pitman arm to suit to try and match RC's the best I can. But I will only move to the front once I know how the rear will perform. It will be a slow process but lack of real world experience and being hard to please will certainly draw that out lol.

    This is the design I think is the best I can come up with, it should fit with minimal difference to the plan I hope. I dont know the exact COG, myself and a mate are searcing for some cheap corner scales or some decent weighbridge time to find out and the unsprung weights are also a guess.

    Screenshot_2014-02-22-22-55-37.png

    Cheers
    Ben
    96 GQ coil/Cab
    08 G6eT


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    Ben you have the right idea, But experience tells me from the F100 experiment that you get to much torque jacking loads when you have the suspension at full droop one side with the top arms at that sort of angle a degree or 2 is fine but that is too much, it dramatically twists the car well it did on the F100 but it had a 460 in it. Also at highway speeds on turns its very sloppy has no inbuild resistance. Another thing the top arms have to be more angled that isn't enough to control diff shift on cornering loads the ass end will feel sloppy because the diff will move from side to side even 5 mm is too much you feel it on evey weight shift. Truly Ben it is a lot nicer in all departments when the arms are near flat. But as said it depends on what you want to compromise from my F100 experience I had very simular to that and it felt terrible to me, you may feel different as this is about what you feel is good. I removed the complete system on the F100 and make the rig lower and made the arms flatter it was ohhhh so much nicer in every situation. Just my experience here Ben. I even compromised clearance under the chassis by having the lower link chassis end half the bush lower than the chassis. I have done the same compromise on the Mav.
    Last edited by OldMav; 23rd February 2014 at 01:13 AM.

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