intake manifold modification

[OldMav]

The petrol manifolds do not fit.
And yes I did test a round lid makes no difference as this is not a true plenum as such. And I have built and tested many designs but most near all were for 200rwkw in mind.
I have not done any testing to improve vacuum for the N/A engine. But if you emulated the square to tube runners and about 130mm tube runner length and about half the engines capacity for the volume of the plenum you would probable produce a stronger torque curve. But you may not realise for a 2000rpm cam sweet spot it is very difficult to get a N/A diesel to react to this sort of thing like a petrol does. Your gains are usually about half of what you would expect compared to a petrol. hence turbo best bang for your buck.
As for reliable well this engine is a freak and was designed with little compromise for strength. There are many of these engines with double and triple the std power doing way past I million KLMs treated correctly.

This is the design I am runner at the present.

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[Ben-e-boy]

Pete.

what gains have you actually made with this current manifold design as opposed to the basic lid lift like my ARE one.
is it more to do with velocity and responce than power?
cheers
Benny

[nissannewby]

Pete.

what gains have you actually made with this current manifold design as opposed to the basic lid lift like my ARE one.
is it more to do with velocity and responce than power?
cheers
Benny

Air speeds are lower at the valve, so better cylinder filling is achieved, which the equates to a faster torque rise. I believe the curved design also helps with reducing turbulence.

[BigRAWesty]

So going back to the well known fact that 1 & 6 starve a little a better designed intake paired with eextractors will aid a bit.. Sure a turbo is best bang for buck.. But I can make all the NA myself, I can't make a turbo..
I'm not thinking anything huge like above, but a neat intake setup will a bettering flow and storage..

[Ben-e-boy]

Air speeds are lower at the valve, so better cylinder filling is achieved, which the equates to a faster torque rise. I believe the curved design also helps with reducing turbulence.

Hmmm.
I would like to put my manifold on the bench and see what happens.

[OldMav]

Pete.

what gains have you actually made with this current manifold design as opposed to the basic lid lift like my ARE one.
is it more to do with velocity and responce than power?
cheers
Benny

Benny This current manifold with cooler attached is for big power but more so with big capacity turbo's like GTX3071 where by there is ample capacity left over including near instant pressure response like the GTX can do. Hence the large volume from cooler and plenum can be negated unlike a front mount which no matter what people say they do lag compared to this set up. The actually manifold design has as best as I can tell has zero Turbulence issues unlike the other simular looking high top systems. Hence if does flow very well and past what I would expect from the std runners.

But for this 200rwkw area as said you can get this from the std manifold but you will not even come close to the torque response of torque rise of this manifold. Like Mat has said air speeds are very low right into the runners hence no turbulence locks and as long as you have pressure in the plenum it is very evident it fills the cylinders very close to what can be achieved with head only values. It still develops that vacuum hole at max torque revs but nothing like a std manifold or a 50mm lid lift or the simular looking high top systems. From testing to the best of my ability I can nearly suggest there is no vacuum locks in the runner in the real world because the GTX 3071 turbo once it hits its sweet spot it develops 15 psi to 50+psi in a vertical line on the dyno less than 150rpm with this system so it is probably not possible to develop a vacuum lock in the runners. But on the bench I cannot simulate this type of turbo response, so I can only suggest my logic here.

We are still very much in real world testing mode here with this system and a tricky turbine housing to obtain this stupid response result. But when this testing was done the liner let go on the dyno so ended out testing (not my engine but a very good friends engine) Before dyno work ceased it saw values past 200rwkw and torque rise values and response in the unheard of area, and we hadn't even got to fuel tune the thing yet. As said all still in the development mode. My rig has the same system but the turbo is a dumb down version so we have something to compare too.

So to answer your question Ben its a big YES to all of those things.

[OldMav]

So going back to the well known fact that 1 & 6 starve a little a better designed intake paired with eextractors will aid a bit.. Sure a turbo is best bang for buck.. But I can make all the NA myself, I can't make a turbo..
I'm not thinking anything huge like above, but a neat intake setup will a bettering flow and storage..

Westy to be very honest I really couldn't tell you. Only some very early learning how the bench worked using a draw through I had very conflicting results doing this testing on different style lid lifts Sure there were improvements but really they were confusing. But I can tell you without doubt that a 50mm lid lift on your N/A engine will give you a torque rise and a flatter curve so not a lot of taper off after peak torque and will allow 1&6 to actually get some air. But I have never tested this on a N/A on the dyno. This is only what the bench tests have suggested to me. But I did get confusing and non consistent results but this could of been operator induced. Also being N/A the final results will be small gains. But I could suggest to you and I always suggest this and I feel many are getting sick of me saying it but the real key to response and big improvements to out TD engine is in the air induction system N/A or Turbo. I cannot stress enough the ZD30 air box is a huge air velocity restrictor, the piping to the turbo or N/A manifold is sooooooo important more important than the manifold even the turbo itself. There is a lot of feel in your pants power here more than you could dream off. And this includes the ZD30 engine as well. I will stick my neck out here and say this with passion from testing and experience this air box is fail in a big way and that includes with a funny lid. Sure you can improve it but it is still fail even for the N/A engine Westy.. but if you can some how stick a proper cleaner on top of the manifold this will be your very best option for best results. Try it with a pod to see if the improvement is worth doing..

[OldMav]

Hmmm.
I would like to put my manifold on the bench and see what happens.

Draw through flow bench will only tell you half the story Ben. My situation has changed a bit in my life and my flow bench and dyno I had no room to store, A very old friend asked for a long term lend so he has it to do a project.. Otherwise I would gladly offer to test your manifold..

[Ben-e-boy]

Benny This current manifold with cooler attached is for big power but more so with big capacity turbo's like GTX3071 where by there is ample capacity left over including near instant pressure response like the GTX can do. Hence the large volume from cooler and plenum can be negated unlike a front mount which no matter what people say they do lag compared to this set up. The actually manifold design has as best as I can tell has zero Turbulence issues unlike the other simular looking high top systems. Hence if does flow very well and past what I would expect from the std runners.

But for this 200rwkw area as said you can get this from the std manifold but you will not even come close to the torque response of torque rise of this manifold. Like Mat has said air speeds are very low right into the runners hence no turbulence locks and as long as you have pressure in the plenum it is very evident it fills the cylinders very close to what can be achieved with head only values. It still develops that vacuum hole at max torque revs but nothing like a std manifold or a 50mm lid lift or the simular looking high top systems. From testing to the best of my ability I can nearly suggest there is no vacuum locks in the runner in the real world because the GTX 3071 turbo once it hits its sweet spot it develops 15 psi to 50+psi in a vertical line on the dyno less than 150rpm with this system so it is probably not possible to develop a vacuum lock in the runners. But on the bench I cannot simulate this type of turbo response, so I can only suggest my logic here.

We are still very much in real world testing mode here with this system and a tricky turbine housing to obtain this stupid response result. But when this testing was done the liner let go on the dyno so ended out testing (not my engine but a very good friends engine) Before dyno work ceased it saw values past 200rwkw and torque rise values and response in the unheard of area, and we hadn't even got to fuel tune the thing yet. As said all still in the development mode. My rig has the same system but the turbo is a dumb down version so we have something to compare too.

So to answer your question Ben its a big YES to all of those things.

Thanks.

So my next question is can you go too big?
I have just had a look at my setup and if everything was still in its current position versus your setup I would have a bit more volume.
Would there be a relation between cooler size and plenum size?

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[OldMav]

Ben to comment without being critical here the system is good but the only issue I have found with testing a system like that which I have had in the past with a KKK turbo is you stuff up flow capacity hence turbulence with the small connection cooler to manifold. Bench testing will tell you nothing here you have to bench the cooler and manifold together. And Yes Ben I tested this system against my now system. And yes it does flow better in the pre torque max rev area mmmm a lot better. Now you are using a bigger cooler than I am which is fine but more volume and funny things happen to flow in the manifold when you speed up volume with that connection type. Also remember I am using water/methanol pre turbo injection as I have always done so I just do not need such a big cooler any more. Hence why I have gone for the cooler connected directly to the plenum.

Ben remember this stuff is all 1% ers now.

PS I forgot YES you can go to big, Hence the half size cooler hehe. But I don't know what to big is as yet..