Let's Get Smart

[macca]

There are some fantastic arguments put forward here and all have there merits.

Emotional comments need to be left out, Test and Tag every 3 months is scare mongering in my opinion.

The 2wd comment is deflecting the focus, there is little chance of educating a 2WD driver about 4WD issues.

To me common sense does exist, if your not sure about something, slow down or stop and think through what is about to happen.
That way you can eliminate risks to people and vehicles, or at least minimise it.

In saying that nothing beats being shown the correct way to do something then practicing the skills learnt.

In our club you can not drive on a club trip unless you have attended a training day, and you have produced your recovery kit for"scrutineering" to be sure it meets safety standards.

You must have front and rear recovery points.

Boats going off shore (in NSW) have a licence and minimum safety kit that is policed, maybe 4WD vehicles in the bush should have the same, the minimum kit part.

I have no idea how to police it, coppers grab unlicenced bikes around here occasionally but only close to town. Having them pull us up for a safety check is opening a can of worms that I dont want to see.

Being a club member or attending a training course before heading into the bush is possibly a start in the right direction for safety.

We suffer from so many rules and regulations in Australia, we dont need more surely. But if we dont do something it will taken out of our hands and decided by a pocket full of pens with no idea.

Macca

[gec]

No I think this country is over regulated now, first we tell them we dont want new regulation for bullbars, now we are saying please tell us which snatch strap to buy, no thank you. Maybe stupidity is a form of natural selection.

[Bigrig]

Where will this all end? When will common sense and self accountability (as per EVERY other product purchase in Australia) prevail. People kill themselves with stupidity and lapse of concentration by sticking a knife into the toaster to get bread out .. so should we regulate the sale of toasters? ensuring everyone who purchases one has an annual registration fee for it and that they have been adequately trained in it's use? God forbid when we start talking of things like bandsaws, and (wait for it), the common house ladder, which in themselves have far higher injury rates attributed to their use on a daily basis than 4WD recovery equipment ... let's regulate them also ...

Yes, I'm on a rant, and nothing and nobody will alter my opinion on this. I love 4WD'ing and for those who've been out with me they would know I am an over the top, loud bloke who loves nothing more than taking the piss out of everything (and drinking a fair bit of piss also!! lol), HOWEVER, those same people would tell you that when it comes to 4WD'ing, I take a safety first approach to everything - not over cautious, just not stupid.

We have little statutes in Australia called ADR's, which generally speaking compared to much of the planet, are some of the strictest on offer in order for them to market and sell their product here (yes, there are loopholes, but I am talking majority for once - not the minority that usually have the loudest voices and the least common sense). There are little organisations called the ACCC, the Dept of Fair Trading, the state based Consumer Protection agencies, Consumer Affairs, etc which are all responsible for the protection of Australian consumers for ALL products and services on offer (we pay for this proliferation of bodies through our taxes people - they aren't provided through love and charity!). We go through the bullbar debate, which is far from over, and then we move on to snatch straps, tow straps, tree protectors, shackles, drag/recover chains, recovery points on the vehicles themselves, lifts, modifications, tyres, engineering, occupant safety, pedestrian safety, and the list goes on and on and on ... well, for me, I want NONE of it regulated.

As per my ridiculous example above, I can purchase any range of "deadly" appliances in this country from some of our major outlets (Bunnings, Mitre10, TrueValue, SuperCheap Auto, Repco, BCF, etc) and the only form of regulation on their distribution is the credit limit on your Visa card ... i.e. if you can afford it, you can have it, and like ALL products sold under the consumer banner, YOU and solely you are responsible for the safe and appropriate usage of that device (as per the little disclaimers on the side of most the cardboard boxes). Why is 4WD'ing any different?? I, me, the fat one am responsible for my purchases (which have already passed ALL those bodies mentioned above just to be able to be sold to me), the way in which I use those purchases, the relevant training involved in the use of those purchases, the safety principles applied to the use of those purchases, and the ongoing reliability of those purchases based on age and date.

Another stupid example to further argue my case - on this and every other motor vehicle forum, there are THOUSANDS if not HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of questions about after market parts to replace swivel hubs, drag links, wheel bearings, brake calipers, engine parts, etc, etc and every single person bar very, very few, attempt to get the most life they can out of those parts with as little expense to themselves as possible. Most of the time, we only look for those parts when the old one has actually failed, so here's a thought, we should have a ntaional regulation (not just the pits that you have to go over in some states - you don't have to do squat in QLD other than pay your rego each year to keep a car on the road) that enforces an annual 456 point check (made up number!) of every piece of critical engine componentry, joints, links, fuel lines, brake lines, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and the car should NOT be allowed back on the road until every fault or perished bush, etc is rectified ... oh, and by the way ... you pay for this - not a free service.

OR alternatively, we can start acting like f#cking Australians (not litigious Americans) and take ownership and accountability for the products we purchase that are freely and readily available in this country because they have been deemed by many so called authorities to be "fit for purpose" and meeting "Australian Design Regulations". Yes, I appreciate this isn't going to change government stance on review of this type of thing (because I say again, they have obviously sorted the homeless situation, the backlog of patients in the health system, our crippled schooling system, our foreign debt, our border defences against boat people, pollution levels from industry, our road infrastucture, etc to have time on their hands to discuss all things 4WD!!) but confronted with outright common sense that applies to just about EVERY other item procured in Australia, where does that leave them other than to say, "you're right, there are regulations in place, there are methods for policing compliance in place, and other than that, there is no more we as a government can do WITHOUT removing the democratic right of every Australian to experience this country at their leisure, in their vehicles, and using products that have already met stringent standards".

I'm sort of sick of it all to be perfectly honest and promise this will be my last rant on the subject - yes there are injuries and deaths caused by using 4WD's and 4WD products every year, and sometimes this is not through stupidity or lack of care - in those cases, it is a tragedy that sometimes genuine accidents do occur. But weigh the argument against the statistics of injury and death caused by other "devices" each year, and the argument speaks for itself - the number one injury in Australia year on year for the last gazillion years is ... wait for it ... cuts!!!! Let's regulate and enforce training (outside of what mummy and daddy taught us) for all sharp instruments that can cause cuts ... I for one am a huge supporter of things like this, as I have seen people using their steak knife at various restaurants I've been too in the past, and can't count the number of times I've thought to myself "geez, someone is going to get hurt here!!" ...

You get my point I'm sure ... rant complete ... some links below for interest and reference.

http://monash.edu/muarc/reports/Othe...20patterns.pdf

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety...stics_dl4.html

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6324.0

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@..../4825.0.55.001

An older one - but interesting read - not the comment that even with all the stats (and they are talking of much older 4WD's in this one), that they are still safer than vans, commercial vehicles and small cars, beaten only by large cars and "luxury" sedans ... again, this is prior to ABS, ESC, air bags, etc ...
http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/A/Safety2.html

http://www.austroads.com.au/pdf/Test..._16Nov_06_.pdf

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/r...-04/04rn27.htm

And that'll do for now ... if you made it through my diatribe above then give yourself a pat on the back!! lol

[Finly Owner]

At no time in this thread did I question regulating the ADR approved gear or such. I was however talking about inferior recovery points offered from the vehicle manufacturer supposedly strong enough to be snatched on. As we know, some of these will not handle being snatched in serious bogs. But how many owners who don't belong to club/forum have been told such. They presume they are going to handle "ANY" recovery. And this is just one point I was trying to make. We as members of forums and clubs can't reach all 4WD owners with this knowledge. So I think someone has to plead to Vehicle manufacturers to fit better recovery points on none at all.

Recovery gear mostly comes with ADR user/operator guides, which is a Stauary requirement in Australia. We can't mkake all people read them. But there is some cheap imported straps out there that came in under the radar, that i would only use as a load restraint.

I would like to see, (dooubt it will ever be) 4WD covered by it's own class on drivers license. To pass you must attend 1 day course educating on basic off road handling, recoveries and equipment,and bitumen driving.

It may seem insulting to those who truly know how to drive their 4B's, but hey think about it, wouldn't you prefer that people learn about the different handling, steering, braking and weight under a contolled learning. I think there are to many rollovers due to inexperience on the bitumen when experiencing weight displacement.

I am not the most experienced 4B owner, but I have learnt to drive MR trucks, I have used an old 4B in Gympie during wet season on muddy roads, driven a lot of sh*t box cars and learnt to deal with their handling problems.
I am open to new ideas, and willing to learn new things from those whom know better. I never believe I am better than I am.

I can see that there are areas that have room for improvement, and anything that saves lives needs investigating. I know this won't stop the IDIOTS, they will always be there, proving to themselves they kNOw better!

[brynk]

this is an interesting debate & good to read all sides. thanks for the links bigrig, i have always driven larger vehicles as i firmly believe in their higher chance of survivability. the higher centre of gravity in fourbies bothers me a little, but it is the price to pay to get the capabilities.

a quick breeze through the statistics presented, and it seems to me that fatalaties with 4wd's involved are higher than average in the following circumstances - speed, roll over, driveway reversing, and as an occupant in the not-at-fault/other vehicle(s) involved in the collision.

unfortunately recovery-deaths did not feature in any of the studies, but i suspect they are a 'silent minority';

r's bryn
(apologies if this is off topic feel free to move it to a more appropriate spot)

[Bigrig]

At no time in this thread did I question regulating the ADR approved gear or such. I was however talking about inferior recovery points offered from the vehicle manufacturer supposedly strong enough to be snatched on. As we know, some of these will not handle being snatched in serious bogs. But how many owners who don't belong to club/forum have been told such. They presume they are going to handle "ANY" recovery. And this is just one point I was trying to make. We as members of forums and clubs can't reach all 4WD owners with this knowledge. So I think someone has to plead to Vehicle manufacturers to fit better recovery points on none at all.

Recovery gear mostly comes with ADR user/operator guides, which is a Stauary requirement in Australia. We can't mkake all people read them. But there is some cheap imported straps out there that came in under the radar, that i would only use as a load restraint.

I would like to see, (dooubt it will ever be) 4WD covered by it's own class on drivers license. To pass you must attend 1 day course educating on basic off road handling, recoveries and equipment,and bitumen driving.

It may seem insulting to those who truly know how to drive their 4B's, but hey think about it, wouldn't you prefer that people learn about the different handling, steering, braking and weight under a contolled learning. I think there are to many rollovers due to inexperience on the bitumen when experiencing weight displacement.

I am not the most experienced 4B owner, but I have learnt to drive MR trucks, I have used an old 4B in Gympie during wet season on muddy roads, driven a lot of sh*t box cars and learnt to deal with their handling problems.
I am open to new ideas, and willing to learn new things from those whom know better. I never believe I am better than I am.

I can see that there are areas that have room for improvement, and anything that saves lives needs investigating. I know this won't stop the IDIOTS, they will always be there, proving to themselves they kNOw better!

I am 100% with you on the training/learning aspects mate, and do understand what your saying about OE recovery points (although the are generally not the cause in recovery deaths - it's using towballs, and tie downs and as you state, inferior quality imports) but the vast majority of recovery deaths are caused by poorly maintained and inferior after market equipment - which goes straight back to my point of user accountability. We MUST be accountable for our actions and again, if someone takes the option to buy a snatch strap (as example) from the internet and do this based solely on the cheapest price, then they are a goose, and if that equipment fails, kills someone, and doesn't in fact (once tested) meet ADR's, then that person should be charged with manslaughter (which goes back to my other point that there are means for policing compliance). Unfortunately, since Adam was a boy, there are two general constants in this space - firstly, you get what you pay for, so very generally speaking, if you are one of those people who "bargain hunt" when it comes to potentially life saving equipment, then you won't be missed from the gene pool when it goes to poo (and yes, I know it's often innocents who wear the injury/death). Secondly, once precedent is set regarding policing and compliance, then as a race of beings, we tend to follow suit - that is, whether we like it or not, we are a collective of people who's behaviour is driven by laws, guidelines, and boundaries that have 'policed and enforced compliance'. The sad reality is, if someone were to be charged with a serious crime like manslaughter and sent off to prison under the circumstances I detailed above, then sure as there is sh!t in a cat, half the so called 4wd'ing community would be rushing out to replace their cheap gear with rated gear, or better still (as most don't know how to use it even if it is quality gear), they stop venturing out until they get the appropriate training (certified or otherwise) and equipment. It's like the old saying, no good having the best ingredients if you still don't know how to cook!!

My overall point is there is a myriad of measures, controlling authorities, regulatory bodies, etc out there and we still have people not doing the right thing. Adding even more will just incent stupid and/or ignorant people into finding other ways around them, and worse still, will simply cost all of us more at the end of the day for a bunch of regulations that have no proven evidence of having positive affect.

Am I all for a single, unified national policy on ALL things 4WD? You bet!! But am I also happy that I can in the meantime, whilst the government continues to flounder around the topic, go on my merry way, going where I want (generally), buying whatever gear I want (I buy nothing but recognized name brands etc for recovery gear), when I want, and avoiding at my discretion those individuals that choose not to do the same (my choice)?? Absolutely!!

[Finly Owner]

Now I fully agree with that Scott!

Tim

[Crowman23]

I think self determination and not regulation is the way to go , (borrowed from stets: hope you dont mind) mandating involves costs, those costs would have to be paid by us 4wders. who here would be willing to pay for a mandatory 4wd course for the entire family each year (standard refresher course) who here would be willing to pay for your recovery gear to be tested and tagged every 3 months, who here would be willing to buy new recovery gear as stipulated by a law. and finally who here would be wlling to pay for this to be policed?

[the ferret]

If it saves just ONE life, it's worth it, go for it!!

[Finly Owner]

I think self determination and not regulation is the way to go , (borrowed from stets: hope you dont mind) mandating involves costs, those costs would have to be paid by us 4wders. who here would be willing to pay for a mandatory 4wd course for the entire family each year (standard refresher course) who here would be willing to pay for your recovery gear to be tested and tagged every 3 months, who here would be willing to buy new recovery gear as stipulated by a law. and finally who here would be wlling to pay for this to be policed?

My argument to that, is what cost is a life?


Tim