best value for money battery for camping?

[Cuppa]

Is the LiFePo4 batteries you mention the same (but different size!) as LiPo used in remote control helicopters?

There seems to be a fair amount of care taken when charging them - fancy chargers and "charging bags" used to control explosion risk.

My unqualified opinion is that bang for buck includes: cost, capacity, frequency of use and weight.

If someone has the cost of the different batteries (just a typical ballpark figure will do) it would be good. I would hazard a guess and say the lead acid cranking battery would be cheapest. How many of them can you stuff for buying even a modest deep cycle

Not certain, but I think LiPo are different to LiFePo4
Many types of 'lithium' batteries, some more volatile than others.
Fancy battery charging /management systems CAN be done cheaply DIY, & as I understand it are not actually that fancy.
Some folk need the reassurance that comes with an expensive proprietary system, some are happy with a time proven DIY system ..... Horses for courses.

AGM battery 200ah - around $450 for a decent one
LifePo4 100ah (equivalent to AGM 200ah) $520 (see link posted earlier) has longer life & less weight, & does not deteriorate/lose charge over time if not used.

It is fair to say that early adoption of new technologies is not for everyone. I'm not trying to 'sell' LiFePo4, I don,t even have any myself, just letting folk who might be interested know that there is an alternative available which would suit the needs of less space, less weight, & similar outlay cost for 4wd purposes.


Cuppa

[BigRAWesty]

Coming from a model background Lipo and life batteries are widely used.
A single cell Lipo crates 3.6V and life 3.2v. So to get your 12v you need to add multiple cells in series. Now this is ok for discharge, but come charge time you need to monitor each cell and charge, or "balance" each cell independently to eliminate the risk of over charge.
Lipo and liFe are very sensitive and will ignite if disrespect.

Now uses. Lipo are good for high voltage quick discharges..
LiFe are a slower discharge but can be drained a lot further without damage and risk of cell rupture.

So although the technology is there, converting it to cars is a big job.
You need a charger that not only steps 12v to the required voltage but also has the ability to charge each cell individually to ensure each cell charges to 100% and not over charges..

Our model charges for an average 5A/h 3cell Lipo (11.1V) your looking at $50+.
Now you could get a 6 cell charger which gives you 10A/H. Still f all.

so thus is why you don't really see Lipo and LiFe in automotive. Its just not cost effective.. and the fact that and damage to cells in a crash results in a largish fire ball and lots of smoke..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories

[threedogs]

Price wise a half decent deep cycle battery will cost $350 that's for a yellow optima job
Some consider them top of the tree {not me} Full River do a great battery as well but will cost maybe $450
But you may find a price of $280 will get a battery that will suit your needs , shop around.
Stay away from re birthed batteries, IMO.
A lot depends on use, place etc

[Cuppa]

Coming from a model background Lipo and life batteries are widely used.
A single cell Lipo crates 3.6V and life 3.2v. So to get your 12v you need to add multiple cells in series. Now this is ok for discharge, but come charge time you need to monitor each cell and charge, or "balance" each cell independently to eliminate the risk of over charge.
Lipo and liFe are very sensitive and will ignite if disrespect.

Now uses. Lipo are good for high voltage quick discharges..
LiFe are a slower discharge but can be drained a lot further without damage and risk of cell rupture.

So although the technology is there, converting it to cars is a big job.
You need a charger that not only steps 12v to the required voltage but also has the ability to charge each cell individually to ensure each cell charges to 100% and not over charges..

Our model charges for an average 5A/h 3cell Lipo (11.1V) your looking at $50+.
Now you could get a 6 cell charger which gives you 10A/H. Still f all.

so thus is why you don't really see Lipo and LiFe in automotive. Its just not cost effective.. and the fact that and damage to cells in a crash results in a largish fire ball and lots of smoke..

Hi Kallen, you are correct about the need for monitoring each cell when charging. This is part of the automatic cell management system which has been developed & successfully used in over 50 RV's ( & growing) with battery banks of up to 800ah. 200ah to 400ah are the most common bank sizes. The battery management system can be put together for under $75 making it cost effective. It has been done so that the system is fail safe as well as low cost & utilises readily available & proven technology. This flies in the face of much of the 'accepted beliefs', but the proof of the pudding is in the eating & the beliefs that have been challenged are now changing. The cynics have started to accept that what they considered not feasible is, albeit having been developed by folks without letters after their names. A few folks with egg on their faces have since wanted to gain the knowledge developed by these pioneers, who understandably have taken great pleasure in refusing them. Hence a continuing 'secretiveness' about it all.

The folks have their own private online forum on which the details of the battery management etc are available. Membership is dependent upon agreement not to sell or share this info, & this has come about because of the negativity aimed at the folks involved & the desire of some to exploit for personal profit. I know a number of the members of that forum but am not a member myself. I do however know a number of these people who have been running their LiFePo4 RV systems both safely & successfully since a couple of years before the technology was adopted by Kimberley Kampers. I have seen their vehicles & know several who live full time in their vehicles, with capabilities that their cynics can only dream about. eg. running air conditioners from battery systems...... all without expensive proprietary battery management systems or fires & explosions.

Initially the folk involved were open & sharing with their knowledge as they worked through how to do things, but the naysayers were so vehement & persistent, as can occur on online forums, that eventually that sharing was withdrawn & the private forum formed.

The following two quotes from a friend of mine who runs the forum.

It's the understanding as a result of learning that costs little yet is priceless that makes all the difference About the only easy way to make a comparison for that bit is, buying a border collie pup doesn't mean you have just purchased a champion sheep dog. The cost of training it yourself is minimal, the knowledge and patience to do it is priceless. Setting up and using a lithium battery pack goes along the same lines, without the knowledge you need someone to build a fail safe system to protect the battery, then you are paying for someone else’s time and knowledge and that rarely comes cheap.
The private forum has the needed information but comes with a condition that what you learn is for your personal use, not to be shared or published outside the private forum.

All lithium technology batteries are li-ion, just as calcium, flooded, agm, gel, starter, deep cycle are all lead acid batteries, it's just the way they store and release their energy, I won't even attempt to explain how that happens with Li-ion batteries here, the eyes would roll and everyone would nod off
LiFeP04 or lithium ferrous batteries are the safest of the breed, they don't burst into flames, tortured they will release a vapour a bit like boiled petrol but it dissipates or settles out into droplets as soon as it cools. The battery is stuffed if you torture it that far, it's the electrolyte boiled away, there is only about a tablespoon in each cell packet and you can't replace it. The alloy of these metals combined make them unaffected by water where pure lithium reacts badly in water, you can dead short it or shoot a hole through it and all that will come out is this boiled electrolyte vapour.
The ones that caught fire in the Boeing 787 were lithium manganese, nearly as unstable as lithium polymer (LiPo) they need to have your full attention when charging them and if you very fast discharge them, they suffer thermal runaway and burst into flames if you stray outside the safety zones even a little bit. Lithium ferrous don't do any of these things, but a big wander outside the safety zones will kill them, just like a lead acid battery, but no explosive gas is produces, just the quick dispersing petrol like vapour but it is flammable while in the vapour stage just the same.

The fail safe nature of the Diy battery management system they have developed ensures full safety.

My mate has given me permission to pass his contact details to anyone who has learned enough to decide that they want to set up a LiFePo4 system for themselves, but warns there is a waiting list to join their forum because of a preference to assist folks on a one to one basis.
Cuppa

[BigRAWesty]

It is possible, by all means. But the risk of what happens when overcharge or over discharge is a big factor I think. And it can happen.. no matter how fool proof your system is, and no matter how many fail safes you have, it only takes one small wire to break on a corrugated road and bag she goes..
Over charge or discharge a lead acid sealed battery nothing happens.
Do the same with a Lipo or life battery... Well... You tube Lipo fire..
But the burn of a cell is only 5-10 seconds. But its a chain reaction.. so if you have 20 cells, you can quite safely wave bye bye to your vehicle..
Also having this chemistry in a moving vehicle introduces the risk of eruption in a crash.. or any situation where a cell can be damaged..


So yea, I'd love to run LiFe batteries, but ill stick to lead acid for the time being..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories

[BigRAWesty]

I just reread the first post and I believe we have strayed.. really.. us noooooo....

Anyway. Best battery.. I got my 120A/h lead acid battery for free.. was 'stuffed' according to the trucking company.. but they turf them as soon as they look like not performing.. as they can't afford down time of a call out..
So the turf out perfectly good batteries.. sure, not new, no warranty and you may get a dud, but they are perfectly fine for our uses.
Mine is 3 years in my possession now, abused the crap out of it.. left uncharged for months, over discharged and left it on cement... Lol
Now its in the car and can carry a 55 ltr weaco and led lighting for 3 days.. so I have no issues with my freebie.. when it starts to fail, ill go get a new one..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories

[ozzyboy]

was thinking of getting something like this.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Thumper-R...item19deaaab7f

my concern is, I had a 120ah battery, and the thing didn't last 12 months. Wife bought it while we were in rocky, lost receipt

[Cuppa]

was thinking of getting something like this.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Thumper-R...item19deaaab7f

my concern is, I had a 120ah battery, and the thing didn't last 12 months. Wife bought it while we were in rocky, lost receipt

By all means go for it mate, but don't expect it to last any better than the previous one if you intend to to run it flat by trying to run an 80 litre fridge for 3 days at a time without any additional charging input. Under such use 12 months lifespan would be good.

These deep cycle batteries are NOT designed to be run until flat before recharging if you want them to last - regardless of what anyone might tell you.

[Cuppa]

It is possible, by all means. But the risk of what happens when overcharge or over discharge is a big factor I think. And it can happen.. no matter how fool proof your system is, and no matter how many fail safes you have, it only takes one small wire to break on a corrugated road and bang she goes..

A failsafe charging system takes into account that wire breaking ....... or it wouldn't be fail safe.

[BigRAWesty]

By all means go for it mate, but don't expect it to last any better than the previous one if you intend to to run it flat by trying to run an 80 litre fridge for 3 days at a time without any additional charging input. Under such use 12 months lifespan would be good.

These deep cycle batteries are NOT designed to be run until flat before recharging if you want them to last - regardless of what anyone might tell you.

That's the thing though. Its free. So abuse the Hell out of it and find there limits before forking out your hard earned..

Kallen Westbrook
Owner of
Westy's Accessories