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Thread: Recovery - The Fundamentals

  1. #11
    I am he, fear me the evil twin's Avatar
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    Firstly, what a great Post Darren,

    I am also a Driver Trainer and Rescue Systems Instructor with the S.E.S. which brings a heap of personal satisfaction which I am sure you get as well doing similar with your Club.

    If I may be permitted to make an observation in the interests of accuracy tho. The figures for two snatch blocks IE triple line pull are incorrect. A standard triple line pull provides a 3:1 mechanical advantage not 4:1 reduces the load on the cable to 1/3rd not 1/4.

    25 Degrees = Load (2,800kgs) + 45% = 4,060kgs X 300% for mud = 12,180kgs
    PLUS the wieght of the Organic mass out the front (About 3m3) and we were up around the 15,000kgs!!

    Put in a Snatch block and that is halved to 7,500kgs, and what is the Hi Mount rated at? 3,632kgs!
    Should have done a triple line pull...Even a Triple Line pull would be 3,250kgs!,


    In that example the "triple line pull" cable load will be 1/3rd or 5,000 Kg's hence the "triple" in the M.A. rig name.

    Whilst on the subject... There is one other factor in M.A. rigs for everyone to keep in mind as well, the load on the snatch block is the sum of the loads on the cable so again to use the same example whilst the load on the cable is 5,000 Kg's the load on the strap or shackle securing the snatch blocks to the vehicle and tree (or whatever) is 10,000 Kg's.

    Here is a cracking good article on M.A. Rigs and loads to illustrate.

    Figure 7 Rig C shows a standard or "triple" line pull 3:1 M.A. rig most people are familiar with and utilise (2 Snatch blocks, 3 anchors)

    Figure 8 Rig A shows how to get a 4:1 M.A from only 2 Snatch blocks and 3 anchors with the lowest load on the Shackles and Rigging using a compound rig which would indeed reduce the line load to 3,750 KG but is no longer a "triple pull". This method needs another rope or cable tho for the 2nd 2:1. In my case I carry a length of Dyneema for this and other uses.

    http://www.ncstaff.net/oed/Pulley%20MA%20Systems.pdf

    Again, my compliments on a top shelf amount of info. The more we get the info out there and the simpler it is then the safer it is for everyone and hopefuly the tragedies will diminish
    Last edited by the evil twin; 10th January 2011 at 07:07 PM.
    Dolphins are so smart that within a few weeks of captivity, they can train people to stand on the very edge of the pool and throw them fish.

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to the evil twin For This Useful Post:

    AB (10th January 2011), Bigrig (10th January 2011), Black Rock (12th April 2012), damianovdd (11th February 2011), Just A Troll (31st October 2015), MudRunnerTD (11th January 2011), rusty_nail (27th January 2012), Waza (15th December 2013)

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  4. #12
    Patrol God Sir Roofy's Avatar
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    You could put a short info night in on the 2012 meet,as an up date on gear and technique

    cheers roofy

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    Banned Bigrig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roofy View Post
    You could put a short info night in on the 2012 meet,as an up date on gear and technique

    cheers roofy
    Not a bad idea to have training sessions of some description if we are going to have some qualified lads and ladettes out there ... nothing too over the top/time consuming, but you get the gist ... good call roofy!!

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    Bitumen Burner DX grunt's Avatar
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    Thanks for bumping this thread.

    I've been looking for it for days.

    Ross
    Winner of 'Best 4 x 4 ' at the 2017 Albany Agricultural Society Inc - Town n Country Ute Muster.

    Ex Telstra - 2005, 4.2 TDi ute -with pod and more fruit than a grocery shop.

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    Administrator AB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roofy View Post
    You could put a short info night in on the 2012 meet,as an up date on gear and technique

    cheers roofy
    That's a great call Roofy, that would make a good night learning more about the fundamentals and facts for sure.

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    I am he, fear me the evil twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AB View Post
    That's a great call Roofy, that would make a good night learning more about the fundamentals and facts for sure.
    It's amazing how popular things like that are yet how little most of us do them... Our Club put a weekend together 2 yaers ago that had some 4WD trips and fun plus a heap of 1 to 2 hour presentations on the two evenings.

    Invited a couple of other Clubs along and the presentations covered things like, Camp Cooking, GPS, Radio Comms, Photography, Local Ranger, etc plus had some Nav Runs, Poker Run etc.

    Everyone reckoned it was FAT.
    Dolphins are so smart that within a few weeks of captivity, they can train people to stand on the very edge of the pool and throw them fish.

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    Administrator AB's Avatar
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    Especially you too ET, I hope Doggy and Rossco can convince you to come over for the meet up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AB View Post
    Especially you too ET, I hope Doggy and Rossco can convince you to come over for the meet up.
    Hmm... Well, someone is going to have to go along to recover 'em or they'll never make it across the Nullarbor... Bwaahahaha.

    I have LSL in 2012 so me and the missus are heading for Tassie... tentatively via the Great Central, Coober Pedy, Wilpena and coming back via the Great Ocean Road then Streaky Bay etc... I'll post up over in the Forum Meet. thread.
    Dolphins are so smart that within a few weeks of captivity, they can train people to stand on the very edge of the pool and throw them fish.

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    Administrator AB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the evil twin View Post
    Hmm... Well, someone is going to have to go along to recover 'em or they'll never make it across the Nullarbor... Bwaahahaha.

    I have LSL in 2012 so me and the missus are heading for Tassie... tentatively via the Great Central, Coober Pedy, Wilpena and coming back via the Great Ocean Road then Streaky Bay etc... I'll post up over in the Forum Meet. thread.
    haha, sounds good, might be able to pop in if we ever decide where we are going that is!

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    Moderator MudRunnerTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the evil twin View Post
    If I may be permitted to make an observation in the interests of accuracy tho. The figures for two snatch blocks IE triple line pull are incorrect. A standard triple line pull provides a 3:1 mechanical advantage not 4:1 reduces the load on the cable to 1/3rd not 1/4.

    25 Degrees = Load (2,800kgs) + 45% = 4,060kgs X 300% for mud = 12,180kgs
    PLUS the wieght of the Organic mass out the front (About 3m3) and we were up around the 15,000kgs!!

    Put in a Snatch block and that is halved to 7,500kgs, and what is the Hi Mount rated at? 3,632kgs!
    Should have done a triple line pull...Even a Triple Line pull would be 3,250kgs!,


    In that example the "triple line pull" cable load will be 1/3rd or 5,000 Kg's hence the "triple" in the M.A. rig name.

    Whilst on the subject... for everyone to keep in mind as well, the load on the snatch block is the sum of the loads on the cable so again to use the same example whilst the load on the cable is 5,000 Kg's the load on the strap or shackle securing the snatch blocks to the vehicle and tree (or whatever) is 10,000 Kg's.

    Figure 7 Rig C shows a standard or "triple" line pull 3:1 M.A. rig most people are familiar with and utilise (2 Snatch blocks, 3 anchors)

    Figure 8 Rig A shows how to get a 4:1 M.A from only 2 Snatch blocks and 3 anchors with the lowest load on the Shackles and Rigging using a compound rig which would indeed reduce the line load to 3,750 KG but is no longer a "triple pull". This method needs another rope or cable tho for the 2nd 2:1. In my case I carry a length of Dyneema for this and other uses.

    http://www.ncstaff.net/oed/Pulley%20MA%20Systems.pdf

    Again, my compliments on a top shelf amount of info. The more we get the info out there and the simpler it is then the safer it is for everyone and hopefuly the tragedies will diminish
    Thanks for the correction Evil, you are correct 3:1 is the outcome.

    Nice link mate, i have saved that to my computer, really sorts out the science of it.

    http://www.ncstaff.net/oed/Pulley%20MA%20Systems.pdf

    EVERYONE SHOULD READ THE LINK ABOVE.
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