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jay see
14th November 2017, 10:22 PM
Hope this is in the right spot..

My 55L (I think) weaco won't last 12 hours. I know that there is a cut out to prevent the battery draining completely, but shouldn't I be getting alot more out of it.

Apparently this is the biggest battery that would fit into the battery box.

The only other thing that is always on with the car is the radio. Charging is through a redarc solenoid type.

Car is driven daily to work and back about 30-45 minutes. http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/90.jpg

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GQtdauto
14th November 2017, 10:37 PM
Is that a deep cycle battery ? Is your alternator ok ? Are the connections to the battery ok?
Starting the fridge on 240 volt then swapping over to 12 volt before you go anywhere reduces drain on a battery so does putting cold things in , 12 hours would be about right if it wasn't getting a proper charge and you started it up on 12 volt only after putting hot stuff in it .
Your fridge could be using excessive power .

Patrol'n
14th November 2017, 11:19 PM
Hey mate, I run a 40lt engel from a 105 AH aux battery charged via a red arc SBI12 solenoid, from what I've seen my mates 50lt waeco uses similar power to my engel so in theory at least my set up at least in terms of basic concept should be similar.

I find that if I drive 30-45 mins or more a day, my battery generally doesn't get below 12.2 / 12.3 volts at worst and then every now and then once a fortnight or so) if I haven't done a bigger drive I will charge it off the mains charger to keep it in good shape.

To give it the best chance, I have had a recon alternator fitted, chucked in an additional earth strap, run dedicated 6mm wire, made sure my connections are good etc, so perhaps you have an issue somewhere?

Few thoughts,
1. Is your fridge wire proper 6mm?
2. Are all connections good?
3. If I run my aircon, it doesn't charge my aux battery as much, so that much driving isn't enough to keep the battery topped up, are you running your aircon?
4. I run my fridge 24/7, if you are switching yours off and on, it uses more power to get cool.
5. How old is the waeco? I understand the older ones are more power hungry than the newer units.

One more thought, when we wired my mates prado with a second battery, we ran a dedicated fridge power wire and it worked great. Later we connected a radio (uhf) feed to that wire, and his fridge would cut out all the time when the compressor switched on and loaded the battery up, then it would rest a bit, switch back on and repeat the process... Fridge wasn't lasting a whole day...
We ran a new clean power feed for his fridge to an Anderson connection from the pos and neg from the battery, no other connections. He hasn't had a problem since. Except when he went overseas for two weeks and left the fridge on...

PeeBee
15th November 2017, 11:52 AM
I think this situation is not new, and for me I like to think about battery capacity like this.

Imagine your battery is simply a bucket of water and the fridge sips from the battery everytime it turns on. If its hot, the fridge sipping continues for longer, bearing mind that the fridge draws the equal amount of power/time, being watts or Amp hour. So without replenishing the loss via charging such as solar or genrator or alternator, you will be losing capaciity.

Next, as the level drops, the 'head or pressure' avail to feed the sipping action gets lower, hence the fridge draws harder and the amps go up.

Also, if the level is low, known as depth of discharge 'DOD' then the time to recover to a higher level is more difficult as the battery has been fatigued by going outside its optimum level of Charge/discharge.

Generally I hear these issues a lot and the solution is simple, have a system that replenishes the draw down as close to that depletion rate - I know, easier said than done and simplistic, but running batteries down to say 10V or even below 12.5V is going to have a direct impact on your battery performance.

I like to maintain my DOD as shallow as possible by having solar panel charging plus running the vehicle on fast idle a couple of times a day during base camp. If you keep the DOD shallow you will get better overall life of the battery and it will recover faster - think of incremental hydration verses say dehydration to a critical level.

Just another way to think about the limits of our 12v power draws.

Rossco
15th November 2017, 12:18 PM
Yeah worth checking the alternator i reckon, mine was similar, wouldn't get more that a day out of it. Was still charging but not very well. With new alternator muuuch better, however if it's running all day in a closed car would be working pretty hard i reckon. I always (try to) put solar on mine if it's not moving for the day just to keep it topped up.

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BigJ
15th November 2017, 01:38 PM
I have a similar problem with my 80L Waeco but I think it's because I just leave the fridge plugged in all the time and don't drive far enough each day for the battery to get a proper charge. It's either that or I need a new auxiliary batt.

Brissieboy
15th November 2017, 04:57 PM
If it uses a Danfoss BD35/50F type compressor then you can trim the battery protection levels a little. This is normally 10.4V cut-out and 11.7V cut-in but can be lowered to 9.6V/10.9V by linking terminals C & P.
This may not be a good idea depending on how you want to treat your battery.
Another little trick is to connect a large capacitor at the fridge. The voltage sensing is always working and when the compressor starts there is a large current surge which can drop the voltage momentarily and cause the voltage sensing circuitry to see a problem. The starting surge current can be quite high and is the reason you need heavier conductors than you would expect based on the normal running current draw.
But heavy wiring and good quality connectors will solve a lot of these power problems with fridge/freezers.

Bacho86
15th November 2017, 07:13 PM
Have you checked the voltage on the secondary battery when the fridge turns off or before you take it for a drive to see what it is getting down to?

Not knowing how you’ve set up your fridge connection, I’d be leaning towards insufficient gauge wiring and earth connection which has been highlighted with an alternator possibly on the way out.

I ran 6 gauge positive and negative from the battery to the boot dedicated for the fridge, and that has always worked well. My battery is getting close to 4 years old now, so maybe due for replacement soon as well


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jay see
15th November 2017, 09:06 PM
Thanks all.

I've always said that electrical isn't my strong point and I keep proving (learning) it.

After reading all the information (some times 2 or 3 times) it's now clear that I haven't wired up the plug (merit)for the fridge correctly.

I think I ran 3mm from a junction box to the plug. Battery is in the back, positive runs to the junction with around 12mm wire.

Pretty sure everything else is OK, as they're USB charging points or switches.

So looks like 6mm wire is the correct way to go for the fridge. Thanks.

Some of the other points that have been mentioned have played a part in this, but that is just me asking too much from a battery.

Again thanks to you all for the info.

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Cuppa
16th November 2017, 07:19 AM
Thanks all.

So looks like 6mm wire is the correct way to go for the fridge. Thanks.





Just be aware there is 6mm & 6mm wire!

6mm auto wire incudes the thickness of it's insulation & only has about 4mm2 of copper.

6mm2 is as it says .... has 6mm2 copper + insulation.

You need 6mm2. (at least)

eg. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6mm2-TWIN-CORE-solar-cable/222077694952?epid=540695967&hash=item33b4dcb3e8:g:Qo4AAOSwevdaCSQT

jay see
16th November 2017, 09:06 AM
Thanks cuppa..

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Bidja
16th November 2017, 02:39 PM
As suggested by Cuppa use a pair of at least 6mm2 copper wire conductors (dedicated for the fridge only). Voltage drop is very important factor to consider and is best to keep the voltage drop below 3%. Can be calculated or measured for a given current flow.

Have you a separate volt meter across each of your batteries (fridge/Aux and main/cranking battery). If not, it is a good idea to organise it so you can observe what’s going on.

Also go to a battery shop and get your battery load tested as one of your battery cells maybe defective, A battery can still accept charge with a crook cell but not to its rated full capacity and therefore not provide the Ah rated (quickly go flat). They will also check your alternator.

I have a 40l engel running of a 105AH deep cycle battery and can run the fridge over for 3 days/two nights camping and generally don’t drive once set up. Any longer I would run a 75 watt PV solar panel. I have a few of these around as I generate my own electricity using a 6.1 kW PV array (tackers) since 1991.

jay see
17th November 2017, 03:56 PM
Called into jay car today to get some wire and terminals and the way the guy there was talking seemed like the battery isn't getting enough power.
So I went home and did some tests.

This was all done with it plugged into the aux battery via a cig plug which is in the back cargo area

Battery is a Deep cycle calcium. The colour indicator is saying that it needs to be charged. I will keep an eye on this over the next week.

I do have gauges connected to the Aux and with a difference of 0.1v

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/126.jpghttp://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/127.jpg

GQtdauto
17th November 2017, 04:36 PM
You may just have trouble all round mate , looking at that makes me think your alternator is not cranking out enough and your battery is also cactus , if you have a charger handy charge the spare battery up for a few days then retest it without load and retest after 12/24 hours without loading it in between.

GQtdauto
17th November 2017, 04:40 PM
Although fridge on will suck the power out its how long you wait after turning off to see what recovery you get , I'm assuming you retested it straight away if so wait longer and see what the recovery is .
I have two gel battery's in mine and if I turn the fridge on when it's warm it also drops alarmingly but recovers to 12.8ish .

jay see
17th November 2017, 05:36 PM
The alternator should be producing over 14v yeah? If that's the problem should I replace with another 100amp or do I need a bigger one.

I'm going to try to get in where I got the battery set up installed tomorrow morning. Hopefully they can test it all. If not I'll see if someone like battery world can help.

Don't want to charge anything outside of the car yet, the whole duel battery system is about a year old.

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Bidja
17th November 2017, 05:49 PM
Called into jay car today to get some wire and terminals and the way the guy there was talking seemed like the battery isn't getting enough power.

Trust you got at least 6mm2 wire/conductors and inline fuses. Engel sockets hook up wire are fused (10 amp fore both +ve & -ve wires).

As mentioned it is worthwhile to go to battery shop and get your battery load tested and they should also check your alternator output (all loads on & off). It is in their best interest as they want to sell batteries (now or later).


Battery is a Deep cycle calcium. The colour indicator is saying that it needs to be charged. I will keep an eye on this over the next week.

This is good. But, IMO and if time allows I would still go and get your battery and alternator check out now (get a performance baseline as reference), then stick it on the charger and see how all holds up. Your call.


This was all done with it plugged into the aux battery via a cig plug which is in the back cargo area


When you run your dedicated +ve and -ve wires for the fridge don't use a cigarette / aux socket, get a proper Engel plug and socket (a screw in solid connection). Will avoid a poor electrical connection, the fridge being disconnected resulting vibration or being accidentally pulled out.

GQtdauto
17th November 2017, 05:56 PM
I'm not sure what you're model alternator you have , mine charges at 14.4 + volts , I think some systems are lower voltage or can be cantankerous with the way they see an extra load , a battery specialist should be able to load test the system and I've never had to pay for a test yet .
So get a load test to make sure alternator and battery is not the problem , I've killed a battery in just under a year by undercharging and killed a crank battery when the alternator was on the way out .

Bidja
17th November 2017, 05:56 PM
The alternator should be producing over 14v yeah? If that's the problem should I replace with another 100amp or do I need a bigger one.

I'm going to try to get in where I got the battery set up installed tomorrow morning. Hopefully they can test it all. If not I'll see if someone like battery world can help.

Don't want to charge anything outside of the car yet, the whole duel battery system is about a year old.

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I just posted prior to reading this.

Yes, about 14.4-14.7 there abouts, and adequate current to cater for your demands. It is good that you are going to check out battery world or the like. Hope all goes well.

GQtdauto
17th November 2017, 05:58 PM
Trust you got at least 6mm2 wire/conductors and inline fuses. Engel sockets hook up wire are fused (10 amp fore both +ve & -ve wires).

As mentioned it is worthwhile to go to battery shop and get your battery load tested and they should also check your alternator output (all loads on & off). It is in their best interest as they want to sell batteries (now or later).



This is good. But, IMO and if time allows I would still go and get your battery and alternator check out now (get a performance baseline as reference), then stick it on the charger and see how all holds up. Your call.



When you run your dedicated +ve and -ve wires for the fridge don't use a cigarette / aux socket, get a proper Engel plug and socket (a screw in solid connection). Will avoid a poor electrical connection, the fridge being disconnected resulting vibration or being accidentally pulled out.

Good advice about the cig plug , I've converted mine to Anderson .

Bidja
17th November 2017, 06:11 PM
Yeh GQtauto, Anderson good, have same in tow.

By the way jay see, I referred to Engel where yours is weaco, same principles apply.

jay see
17th November 2017, 06:45 PM
Trust you got at least 6mm2 wire/conductors and inline fuses. Engel sockets hook up wire are fused (10 amp fore both +ve & -ve wires).



When you run your dedicated +ve and -ve wires for the fridge don't use a cigarette / aux socket, get a proper Engel plug and socket (a screw in solid connection). Will avoid a poor electrical connection, the fridge being disconnected resulting vibration or being accidentally pulled out.

No. I didn't get any wire just yet.

The dedicated plug at the moment is a merit plug, but I'm not using that one.



Good advice about the cig plug , I've converted mine to Anderson .

Yeah I think I will too, once it's all sorted.



By the way jay see, I referred to Engel where yours is weaco, same principles apply.

I gather that.



When I say off the aux battery with a cig plug. This is what I mean.

Once it's all working properly I'll be using the 6mm2 wire with a twist and lock merit or an Anderson. http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/128.jpg

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gubigfish
17th November 2017, 10:11 PM
I'm assuming your battery is in the back of the patrol, what size wire have you run to it?

jay see
17th November 2017, 10:24 PM
I'm assuming your battery is in the back of the patrol, what size wire have you run to it?Yes it is. Fat wire as big as my thumb.

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threedogs
18th November 2017, 08:58 AM
I run my fridge off the aux in a very dark cargo area ,Its only for food and a six pack for the last day.
Have the esky dripping slowly into a billy as water to hotter than water. make a old radio up in a box to run off a battery box you can top up with some solar.
never ran out of battery power ever. dont use youe Fridge for drinks it will flatten in now time ,
If you camp near a town or caravan park take an esky for drinks, cold water to wash your face in the morning priceless
Mt aux battery is a 115ah wet cell Trojan. would love litium but they over a grand It can wait till the lotto win
edit I also use a digital temp controller best mod everIMO

GQtdauto
18th November 2017, 09:02 AM
Yeah lithium is good but the prices not so much .

jay see
19th November 2017, 10:54 AM
OK. I think I may worked out what's going on.

Last week at around 7pm I loaded up the fridge. Plan was to fill it with water and beer, for the Sunday cricket games and leave it in there.

Sunday morning ready to go and my son goes out to start the car, he drives to the ground and we set ourselves up.

Fridge keeps going off.

I ask him last night. Did you do anything different last week before we drove to cricket? No, 10 minutes later, "oh wait the radio was on but it was muted and the screen was off."

The radio is connected to the aux battery and you need to turn it on and off everytime.

He was on the phone writing stuff down when I jumped out. He knows how to turn it off, but must've forgotten to.

So the radio was on for 15 hours with the fridge.

I plugged the fridge in last night straight into the battery box at around 6 and checked it just now 11.5v

The dedicated plug is only a short distance from the junction box may be a metre. Would the 6 mm2 still be recommended or would that be overkill for such a short distance.

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Cuppa
19th November 2017, 11:07 AM
Where & when you do the voltage checking is important.

What you need to check is the voltage at the fridge when it is running. This probably involves having to rig up something to enable this.

Reason is to check the voltage drop between battery & fridge.

No good checking the voltage at each end of the cable when there is no load. Voltage drop increases with the current being drawn.

It can be a 'vicious circle'. Load increases when fridge cycles on, voltage drop increases, fridge compensates by drawing more current (amps) -> battery discharges quicker.

Bidja
19th November 2017, 12:41 PM
Totally agree.......


Where & when you do the voltage checking is important.

What you need to check is the voltage at the fridge when it is running. This probably involves having to rig up something to enable this.

Reason is to check the voltage drop between battery & fridge.


No good checking the voltage at each end of the cable when there is no load. Voltage drop increases with the current being drawn.

It can be a 'vicious circle'. Load increases when fridge cycles on, voltage drop increases, fridge compensates by drawing more current (amps) -> battery discharges quicker.


jay see, As mentioned earlier on this thread:


Voltage drop is very important factor to consider and is best to keep the voltage drop below 3%. Can be calculated or measured for a given current flow.


Noted that your fridge cable run is less than 1m from battery box (in back of veh) and that your charging cables to the batery box "are as big as your thumb" !!!. Both cable runs are important in term of achieving a miniumal/acceptable voltage drop. Both have current flow that can be checked by measurement.

EG: the fridge run: Hook up Volt meters, one at the battery and one at fridge. Get a multimeter that can measure current flow (not hard to get) and then you can measure the start up and run currents. Hence by taking the reading of both volt meters you can these see the votage drop at the given current flows.

the evil twin
19th November 2017, 12:44 PM
Wot Cuppa & Bidja said X 2

I would also make sure you start off your testing with a fully charged Aux.
Use a Bench Charger to make sure.

The fridge being faulty can be ruled out 99% of the time and if the battery is good then it means you are looking for either poor charging to the Aux or high resistance/voltage drop in the leads

Some fridges are a PIA as the low voltage cut is too high from manufacture but it is what it is.

jay see
19th November 2017, 08:04 PM
Thanks for the input guys.

I've pulled out the aux battery tonight and put it on a 240v charger. Will start with a fresh battery.

Called in to battery world today and was told that my battery is part of the problem that and the solenoid setup is old technology and I should've gone for a bc/dc. Starter battery is good at about 90 odd % aux was at about 50% after the fridge being on since yesterday with a 30 minute drive.

Battery is (see pic) not a deep cycle, but more a continuous use. I was told that because it has cca it's not the best for what I want to use it for.

I think the solenoid setup is enough, but a true deep cycle battery would be better. Will see how it goes with this one after it comes off the charger and no leaving the radio on. http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/170.jpg

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GQtdauto
19th November 2017, 08:55 PM
Yeah I thought it was a crank battery and asked in my first reply , that sort of says a lot about your problem they don't like being drained by constant usage and you can bugger them quick in that application .
If your solenoid is working what does it matter the age and as for the bc/dc charger if your alternator by manufacture won't put out 14.4 volts you might have to go that way .
I'm lucky in that my solar on the roof rack will charge to 14.4 volts and I run a three battery system .

GQtdauto
19th November 2017, 09:00 PM
Just read the battery wording and it says it's a continuous use ,high cycle battery so now I'm confused there's a big difference between a crank and deep cycle battery or at least there used to be . Cuppa you're up mate .

jay see
19th November 2017, 09:04 PM
Just read the battery wording and it says it's a continuous use ,high cycle battery so now I'm confused there's a big difference between a crank and deep cycle battery or at least there used to be . Cuppa you're up mate .To me is a mix of both. Which is not what I need. Why the installer went with this battery, I have no idea.

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jay see
19th November 2017, 09:07 PM
Alternator is throwing out 14v.

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Cuppa
19th November 2017, 09:09 PM
Called in to battery world today and was told that my battery is part of the problem that and the solenoid setup is old technology and I should've gone for a bc/dc.

A possibility, but some places are better at selling gear to folk than they are at diagnosing problems. Take their comments with a pinch of salt & test things methodically. I've seen plenty of R V owners sold $100's, sometime $1000's worth of gear to sort out problems caused by something fixable for a few bucks.

A mate & I helped out a lady a few months ago, with a converted bus after a Battery World store had cost her over $3k in new & supposedly better gear to fix a flat battery problem. Between us we spent a few hours checking out her system & concluded that the still existing problem was in fact caused by a faulty thermostat in her fridge. A new one was sourced from ebay for less than $30 & the problem was completely solved. She was, as you might expect extremely happy & pretty cheesed off at the expensive advice she'd had from Battery World. Not suggesting that this is your problem, just that Battery world in her case found it easier (& profitable) to just sell her stuff in the hope it would work.

GQtdauto
19th November 2017, 09:13 PM
Actually the GU when we bought it had a similar if not same battery for dual now I think of it , it was ratshit and positive wires had been cut , I thought it was the older style redarc solenoid to blame and swapped it out but my problem was elsewhere .
You will still have a problem if you can't charge the battery with the right voltage , without running back to check I think it was only about 14.1 from memory but if your spare was down maybe it was reading lower because of that .

GQtdauto
19th November 2017, 09:15 PM
Does anyone know if the alternator in this thing only gets to 14. Ish volts .

jay see
19th November 2017, 09:16 PM
Yeah, I know cuppa.

I like to take on as much information as possible, then go with what I believe is correct,

A good example of that is I got quoted 1600 for a radio + install for the wifes x5.
After some researching I've discovered that you have to cut into the heater box or install a single din radio. They never said anything about that..

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PeeBee
19th November 2017, 09:22 PM
Exide put out a hybrid battery about 15 years ago, it was marketed as a semi deep cycle with cranking ability - or more realistically one foot in each camp, so a compromise. I tried one and to be honest it didn't perform on deep cycle applications, even with shallow DOD, but know of a couple of guys who installed the same battery for a crank application and it seemed to work well, however didn't have the grunt for winching beyond a couple of pulls - recovery seemed to be longer, even with high amp alternators.

The bit that confused me with the label is this battery seems to be able to handle marine, crank and deep discharge. I know a bit about battery construction and all three applications, demand different battery config. In fact, if you install a Century marine battery in your 4wd, then try to do a warranty call on it in your 4wd it will be rejected - know this from a guy who got sold marine batteries under the guise they handle vibration better than the 4wd deep cycles - nope, they don't and no warranty.

Bit of a mystery as ACDelco are a huge company, and you would expect a quality product from them. I buy my batteries from Battery World and reckon my local guys knows his product.

I agree with what GQtdauto says, the starting point for all this rests with the battery management system you select. 14.3 is merely a feeder voltage to the battery isolator/computer. From here your Dc-DC system should optimise the charger voltage and profile to suit the battery type. I think there is plenty of expertise within the forum to help you get to a point where you are happy. Hope this helps and adds to the picture.

jay see
19th November 2017, 09:51 PM
It does PeeBee

But my charging system is the redarc sbi12.

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GQtdauto
19th November 2017, 09:58 PM
That's a dual battery solenoid jaysee not a charging system (sbi12).

jay see
20th January 2018, 09:53 AM
OK. I'm going to replace the battery, I'm sure that it's dropped a cell.

Came across this

https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/batteries/deep-cycle-agm/140ah-12v-agm-deep-cycle-battery

Wasn't looking for one that big, but at the price it looks good. Works out at $283 delivered.
I keep seeing people talk about making sure that its the correct weight. All I could find is that the weight is worked out at .3 kg per ah so this should be 42 Kg. It states that it's Approx 37.6 Kg. Is my .3 per ah correct and what are your thoughts on the battery, anyone got one?

Thanks

GQtdauto
20th January 2018, 10:11 AM
I have two aux 105 amp gel cell batteries bloody heavy suckers but not worried about weight so much , the price is cheap for a 140 amp battery.

Hodge
20th January 2018, 10:38 AM
Thats a good price for AH-per-$ .
I wouldn;t worry about the weight, just make sure if it's going in a under bonnet tray that the tray can handle it.

jay see
20th January 2018, 11:26 AM
Thats a good price for AH-per-$ .
I wouldn;t worry about the weight, just make sure if it's going in a under bonnet tray that the tray can handle it.It's going in the back. I want to reduce the length of one of the draws and stick the battery behind it eventually.

I'm not concerned about the weight, it's what I read to work out if you get what is advertised. Some are sticking a xxxah sticker on it and it's not.

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jay see
20th January 2018, 10:12 PM
Ordered it earlier today.
Should have it some time next week will report back after I get it in and have given it a run.

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Yeti's Beast
19th December 2018, 10:23 PM
Ordered it earlier today.
Should have it some time next week will report back after I get it in and have given it a run.

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So how has your new battery been?


Proud BTrol Owner
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jay see
20th December 2018, 03:45 PM
So how has your new battery been?


Proud BTrol Owner
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProFaultless. I was a little concerned so I brought a folding solar panel to keep it topped up, but it handled a weekend trip without a problem. That's a 50l fridge,a few phones and the radio going (also connected to the aux battery)
I think in my build thread there's the install of the battery behind the draw.

I put it on a 240v charger every few months or when I remember..

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