Engine Conversion Certification

[PeeBee]

My patrol is on its way back from WA after getting a Chev Engine transplant. Its currently running 32" tyres. Can I get it certified for 33" or 35" as part of the process of the Victorian Eng certification process or are 35" tyres universally unroadworthy in Vic? I am going to move to a larger diameter once the 32" wear out. I understand there is a 3" rule, being 2" on tyre diameter from standard, or 1" radius, then 2" lift on springs. If 35" tyres are unroadworthy in Vic, how can they be sold also - curious.

[jay see]

Just because you can buy something doesn't make it legal.
You can buy a car that does more than the speed limit, but it illegal to speed. You can also buy super low springs, but that is also illegal to fit.
I'll let mudski get into the lift and height requirements as he has just got he's engineered or there is a thread on that very topic.

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[mudski]

You can get anything engineered. 6inch lift and 37's if you want. But. A VASS approved engineer will only engineer a vehicle using the VSB14 rules. Which the the Vehicles Standard Bulletin. Within these rules the maximum tyre allowance is 33inch. a 285 or a 305, as these have the same rolling diameter. A 315 is classed as a 35 so they are a no go. As for lift, 2inch is as big as you can go is suspension with 285's or 305's without an engineers, equate to 3inch in total. VASS engineers will only approve lifts of up to 4inch for suspension and 285's or 305's for tyres.
From my findings the only way to get 35's approved the right way, is to spend about 15k on Portal axles.
So to my first part, you can technically get any engineer to do the check over your car and approve it, if it passes. But you then need to hand over the certificate to Vic Roads. They will know if the engineer is approved or not and can refuse the certificate on the spot, and make you tow the vehicle home. Even if they do let it through, the boys in blue can't refuse the certificate given by your engineer, but they can contact Vic Roads and make them aware of this and Vic Roads can make your new certificate nul and void when it suits them. With a VASS approved engineers certificate, both parties cannot refuse the validity of your certificate as it has been approved according to VSB14.

Rules and regs do change from state to state.

Read this link regarding different laws.
http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-general-mods/4wd-modification-legalities-updated-jan-2014

Also see this link for our discussion thread....
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?36512-Vehicle-Engineers-reports-4WD-Modification-rules-whats-allowed-what-not

Hope this helps.

[PeeBee]

You can get anything engineered. 6inch lift and 37's if you want. But. A VASS approved engineer will only engineer a vehicle using the VSB14 rules. Which the the Vehicles Standard Bulletin. Within these rules the maximum tyre allowance is 33inch. a 285 or a 305, as these have the same rolling diameter. A 315 is classed as a 35 so they are a no go. As for lift, 2inch is as big as you can go is suspension with 285's or 305's without an engineers, equate to 3inch in total. VASS engineers will only approve lifts of up to 4inch for suspension and 285's or 305's for tyres.
From my findings the only way to get 35's approved the right way, is to spend about 15k on Portal axles.
So to my first part, you can technically get any engineer to do the check over your car and approve it, if it passes. But you then need to hand over the certificate to Vic Roads. They will know if the engineer is approved or not and can refuse the certificate on the spot, and make you tow the vehicle home. Even if they do let it through, the boys in blue can't refuse the certificate given by your engineer, but they can contact Vic Roads and make them aware of this and Vic Roads can make your new certificate nul and void when it suits them. With a VASS approved engineers certificate, both parties cannot refuse the validity of your certificate as it has been approved according to VSB14.

Rules and regs do change from state to state.

Read this link regarding different laws.
http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-general-mods/4wd-modification-legalities-updated-jan-2014

Also see this link for our discussion thread....
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?36512-Vehicle-Engineers-reports-4WD-Modification-rules-whats-allowed-what-not

Hope this helps.

Mudski,

thanks for the clarification. I am pretty sure that 33" is my limit anyway and when my 32" tyres run down thats what I will live with. I like the 'look' of the portals but have no real need them, and certainly no desire right now after forking out for the Brunswick conversion.

[mudski]

Mudski,

thanks for the clarification. I am pretty sure that 33" is my limit anyway and when my 32" tyres run down thats what I will live with. I like the 'look' of the portals but have no real need them, and certainly no desire right now after forking out for the Brunswick conversion.

No worries. 33inch is your limit. No questions on that. In hindsight, I the amount of coin I spent on a TD rebuild and conversion I could have just about done a Brunswick Diesel. I love my TD, but a V8 Diesel is just next level shizz. In my next life....

[PeeBee]

Vehicle went to the VASS engineer today and whilst the end result was the engineering certificate, it wasn't without challenge. The conversion paperwork did not list a number of items he required and he outright refused to add the GVM upgrade due to insufficient documentation.

The GVM upgrade has turned out a complete cluster from my perspective. BD did a typo on the certificate and i ended up with a GVM 500kg less than original nameplate. So name plate original is 2800kg, plus 500kg upgrade = 3300kg, BD had the original at 1750 plus 500 = 2250kg. I didn't pay any attention until I put it over the weighbridge and it came in at 2940kg. Bit of a freak out moment. Number of calls back and forth to BD and they will re-issue the GVM upgrade docs, which being a national certification sail thru Vicroads - who knows. The VASS engineer wanted axle strengths and spring rates and brake tests etc etc - I just said pls do the engine and barwork and I will sort out the GVM later. He agreed, so ended up with from and rear bars and dual winches, side rails roof rack, fuel tanks, transmission, engine and something else - escapes me.
Had to remove the original GVM upgrade plate and send it together with the original GVM paperwork back to BD - it was a typo issue it seems but what a PIA.
I used a guy in Hallam ECAD P/L - listed on Vicroads website. He is laid back but attentive, lots of questions, if you can't supply a receipt he grills down into the details, such as the rear spring tower stiffeners and bridge plate - who made them, who installed, when etc. As long as you have the answers and he believes its plausible he is satisfied. He prefers CASH as well, just a heads up. Total process took about 20 minutes and 5 minutes under bonnet and under car on the ground - nothing else - didn't even start or drive it. So, just waiting on revised MOD plate from BD and then off to Vicroads for the next joust.

[Irish]

Vehicle went to the VASS engineer today and whilst the end result was the engineering certificate, it wasn't without challenge. The conversion paperwork did not list a number of items he required and he outright refused to add the GVM upgrade due to insufficient documentation.

The GVM upgrade has turned out a complete cluster from my perspective. BD did a typo on the certificate and i ended up with a GVM 500kg less than original nameplate. So name plate original is 2800kg, plus 500kg upgrade = 3300kg, BD had the original at 1750 plus 500 = 2250kg. I didn't pay any attention until I put it over the weighbridge and it came in at 2940kg. Bit of a freak out moment. Number of calls back and forth to BD and they will re-issue the GVM upgrade docs, which being a national certification sail thru Vicroads - who knows. The VASS engineer wanted axle strengths and spring rates and brake tests etc etc - I just said pls do the engine and barwork and I will sort out the GVM later. He agreed, so ended up with from and rear bars and dual winches, side rails roof rack, fuel tanks, transmission, engine and something else - escapes me.
Had to remove the original GVM upgrade plate and send it together with the original GVM paperwork back to BD - it was a typo issue it seems but what a PIA.
I used a guy in Hallam ECAD P/L - listed on Vicroads website. He is laid back but attentive, lots of questions, if you can't supply a receipt he grills down into the details, such as the rear spring tower stiffeners and bridge plate - who made them, who installed, when etc. As long as you have the answers and he believes its plausible he is satisfied. He prefers CASH as well, just a heads up. Total process took about 20 minutes and 5 minutes under bonnet and under car on the ground - nothing else - didn't even start or drive it. So, just waiting on revised MOD plate from BD and then off to Vicroads for the next joust.

I spoke to him when i started looking into the turbo upgrade for my TB, he was pretty good to deal with on the phone. I'm nearing completion on mine, so I'll be getting the emissions test done then it's off to him for certification.

[mudski]

Vehicle went to the VASS engineer today....
snip/
I used a guy in Hallam ECAD P/L - listed on Vicroads website. He is laid back but attentive, lots of questions, if you can't supply a receipt he grills down into the details, such as the rear spring tower stiffeners and bridge plate - who made them, who installed, when etc. As long as you have the answers and he believes its plausible he is satisfied. He prefers CASH as well, just a heads up. Total process took about 20 minutes and 5 minutes under bonnet and under car on the ground - nothing else - didn't even start or drive it. So, just waiting on revised MOD plate from BD and then off to Vicroads for the next joust.

He wants cash. Sounds a bit dodgy. Seen a few discussions floating around on FB about cash jobs for mod plates. Its his nuts that are on the line if he gets caught. So he signed off on the conversion without doing a brake test and checking spring rates? Again, Its his nuts that are on the line if he gets caught. Unless he's allowed to do this, which I doubt. But atleast you got it done. I thought Brunswick would have done the engineers report when doing the conversion.

[PeeBee]

He wants cash. Sounds a bit dodgy. Seen a few discussions floating around on FB about cash jobs for mod plates. Its his nuts that are on the line if he gets caught. So he signed off on the conversion without doing a brake test and checking spring rates? Again, Its his nuts that are on the line if he gets caught. Unless he's allowed to do this, which I doubt. But atleast you got it done. I thought Brunswick would have done the engineers report when doing the conversion.

The cash is an easy payment option with all that goes with it, so I suspect its perhaps not as 'dark' as perhaps you are saying, simply because the eng certificate is registered and any blow back if it were to occur has little to do with the payment method. He also takes credit card, but it wasn't working, so direct deposit was the final option, again, same numbers for each method.
Regards what he has to do and not do, I have no idea. The brake test was required for the GVM upgrade, not the engine swap, however his issue was the lack of detail in the BD docs to validate the GVM upgrade had gone thru the same process or rigour as the Vicroads requirement. Since the GVM upgrade is a NATIONAL certification, I could not understand the challenge to be honest. The issue with spring rates were related to the engine swap for sure - he wanted documentation for front and rear springs. I gave hime the fronts as these were upgraded by BD and he simply did a web search on the part number, however the rears were accepted based on what I told him was the complete upgrade, being 400kg Dobinson coils and firestone air bags and then Superior spring tower strengthening and then tying the spring towers together and bolting thru the floor with backing plates - this he accepted instead of a receipt or validated engineering comps.

[mudski]

The cash is an easy payment option with all that goes with it, so I suspect its perhaps not as 'dark' as perhaps you are saying, simply because the eng certificate is registered and any blow back if it were to occur has little to do with the payment method. He also takes credit card, but it wasn't working, so direct deposit was the final option, again, same numbers for each method.
Regards what he has to do and not do, I have no idea. The brake test was required for the GVM upgrade, not the engine swap, however his issue was the lack of detail in the BD docs to validate the GVM upgrade had gone thru the same process or rigour as the Vicroads requirement. Since the GVM upgrade is a NATIONAL certification, I could not understand the challenge to be honest. The issue with spring rates were related to the engine swap for sure - he wanted documentation for front and rear springs. I gave hime the fronts as these were upgraded by BD and he simply did a web search on the part number, however the rears were accepted based on what I told him was the complete upgrade, being 400kg Dobinson coils and firestone air bags and then Superior spring tower strengthening and then tying the spring towers together and bolting thru the floor with backing plates - this he accepted instead of a receipt or validated engineering comps.

Yeah cool. Might have been just how you worded it that he prefers cash. alarm bells rings when i see that. But as you explained, its all good. One thing i was told when i got mine done is its best to get everything done as it looks better on the plate with more codes to keep mr. plod happy, or happyer if thats possible. As they can see you can gone to efforts to get it done. Rather than just argue with them when they pull you up and pull their book out.

[PeeBee]

Yeah cool. Might have been just how you worded it that he prefers cash. alarm bells rings when i see that. But as you explained, its all good. One thing i was told when i got mine done is its best to get everything done as it looks better on the plate with more codes to keep mr. plod happy, or happyer if thats possible. As they can see you can gone to efforts to get it done. Rather than just argue with them when they pull you up and pull their book out.

What i was surprised about were the noting of the ARB siderails front and rear bars and winches, and roofrack - if these are so in need of 'engineering' why doesn't everyone who bolts one on have to jump thru the same hoops? I 'expected' they were already exempt under some sort of 'standard optional equipment' process that the likes of ARB might have gone thru to ensure they are ADR compliant - maybe its simply being conservative getting them on the plate, but there really is no 'test' rolled out to validate each of these add-ons.

[PeeBee]

He wants cash. Sounds a bit dodgy. Seen a few discussions floating around on FB about cash jobs for mod plates. Its his nuts that are on the line if he gets caught. So he signed off on the conversion without doing a brake test and checking spring rates? Again, Its his nuts that are on the line if he gets caught. Unless he's allowed to do this, which I doubt. But atleast you got it done. I thought Brunswick would have done the engineers report when doing the conversion.

Also, BD do get the vehicle compliant with the ADR's however the WA system is not recognised in Victoria for the engine placement, but the GVM upgrade is. Also I heard recently of someone buying a converted vehicle thru a company and bringing it back to Vic, then simply swapping the rego over from one company to the other - no engineering process required or chased - very odd double standard or simply a huge loophole.

[mudski]

I removed everything from my car except for the bull bar, as advised from the engineer. As I had no rear dickie seats and the seat belts removed they made mine as a 5 seater and this gave me an extra 180kgs on the GVM too.

[rainsey]

I removed everything from my car except for the bull bar, as advised from the engineer. As I had no rear dickie seats and the seat belts removed they made mine as a 5 seater and this gave me an extra 180kgs on the GVM too.

Yep,

I did the same, Took the bull bar and side Raines, the dog box off, the passengers seat, emptied the fuel tanks, took every conceivable bolt on option off to get the tare weight done for NSW.

Put it all back on for engineering. I must say though, the NSW engineer that I went thorough was absolutely fantastic.

Cheers
Rainsey


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[PeeBee]

Yep,

I did the same, Took the bull bar and side Raines, the dog box off, the passengers seat, emptied the fuel tanks, took every conceivable bolt on option off to get the tare weight done for NSW.

Put it all back on for engineering. I must say though, the NSW engineer that I went thorough was absolutely fantastic.

Cheers
Rainsey


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I removed the rear seats and 'converted it to a 5 seater' also. I would have been well under the revised limit of 3300kg as I came in at 2940, however the certificate was something like 2450 - so simply no hope. Anyway BD rang today to say the revised plate and paperwork was with them, and as soon as the old stuff arrived by post they would send it. Been busy every night bolt the junk back onto it and leaving a bit off - simply don't ned it. The hydraulic winch is going to be my challenge as I need the dual pulley drive off the PS pump to drive the second pump, and having to make one from bits is a pain. Do you know how tight the fit is of the spline on the pulley to the pump shaft? I am wodering if I can quietly tap it off or have to use a puller?

[mudski]

I removed the rear seats and 'converted it to a 5 seater' also. I would have been well under the revised limit of 3300kg as I came in at 2940, however the certificate was something like 2450 - so simply no hope. Anyway BD rang today to say the revised plate and paperwork was with them, and as soon as the old stuff arrived by post they would send it. Been busy every night bolt the junk back onto it and leaving a bit off - simply don't ned it. The hydraulic winch is going to be my challenge as I need the dual pulley drive off the PS pump to drive the second pump, and having to make one from bits is a pain. Do you know how tight the fit is of the spline on the pulley to the pump shaft? I am wodering if I can quietly tap it off or have to use a puller?

No way! I came in at that exact weight too....

[PeeBee]

No way! I came in at that exact weight too....

Odd isn't it. I actually thought I would be a lot lighter as I took out 80kgs of batteries and a 60L engel. Anyway, the batteries had died so they went onto the nature strip for someone to scavenge. I replaced them with a single N200 at 200a/h and 1300CCA rating, principally to power the rear winch.

[PeeBee]

I am still labouring with my GVM upgrade.What I have learnt however is that for a GQ patrol, the front axle load rating is 1500kg and the rear is 1800kg. I have this in writing from Nissan Australia, and it aligns with the 'automatic WA GVM upgrades' as dished out like hamburgers, as you don't need to do any structural mods to the vehicle to increase its load carrying capacity beyond its limits if the GVM upgrade is 3300kg. If you want to go beyond this, then you appear to be up for axle housing stiffening, or at least that is how I am interpreting it.

I am waiting for docs from Dobinsons to ratify the coils installed as meeting the ADR requirements and will advise when they come thru.

Right now I have a VASS sign-off for the engine swap. To add the GVM upgrade requires a completely new VASS assessment of all the items included in the original, plus anything else the engineer decides is applicable, so be aware if going down this track. Not happy.

[mudski]

I am still labouring with my GVM upgrade.What I have learnt however is that for a GQ patrol, the front axle load rating is 1500kg and the rear is 1800kg. I have this in writing from Nissan Australia, and it aligns with the 'automatic WA GVM upgrades' as dished out like hamburgers, as you don't need to do any structural mods to the vehicle to increase its load carrying capacity beyond its limits if the GVM upgrade is 3300kg. If you want to go beyond this, then you appear to be up for axle housing stiffening, or at least that is how I am interpreting it.

I am waiting for docs from Dobinsons to ratify the coils installed as meeting the ADR requirements and will advise when they come thru.

Right now I have a VASS sign-off for the engine swap. To add the GVM upgrade requires a completely new VASS assessment of all the items included in the original, plus anything else the engineer decides is applicable, so be aware if going down this track. Not happy.

Is this something you could maybe upload with google docs or something? I can then put in in the Vehicle Engineers sticky for other to read.

Cheers.

[PeeBee]

Is this something you could maybe upload with google docs or something? I can then put in in the Vehicle Engineers sticky for other to read.

Cheers.

All I have is the letter from Nissan Australia which is linked to my rego number and VIN, which would need to be deleted of course. It was not a big deal to get from Nissan Australia, just rego number and VIN and 2 days later they supplied it.

[PeeBee]

70979

See if this works

[mudski]

Thanks mate. Not sure if this will help in any way though as it is VIN specific according to that pdf. Although it may be the same across the board for GQ's. Did you just ring them up and ask for this?

[PeeBee]

Thanks mate. Not sure if this will help in any way though as it is VIN specific according to that pdf. Although it may be the same across the board for GQ's. Did you just ring them up and ask for this?

I enquired by email to their customer service department. They ask for rego number, vin and contact name and phone. They were back to me in 48hrs verbally, then i rang and requested the confirmation in writing, no problem, had it in 24 hrs - excellent customer service. regards applicability, yes probably VIN specific, but the info is readily avail.

[PeeBee]

Well the nightmare ride is over. GVM increased to 3300kg today after a series of brake tests from 80-0 and 60 - 0 km/hr to assess brake fade. Came thru with flying colours, in part i am sure due to the brake hose upgrade from Safebrake.

Learnings from this process.
1) do not bother with ANY engineering certification from WA if you want it engineered in Victoria - save your money. The WA docs were 100% worthless and a waste of money.
2) research your selected VASS engineer and go and speak with them in advance to find out what they expect and what you are prepared to comply with. One VASS engineer I was directed too was entirely 'over the top' and treated the certification process as a money spinner - launching into a whole heap of tangential issue not related to an engine or GVM upgrade - for example, what has an indicator in a bullbar got to do with the process - nothing.

All up this whole charade, which in my eyes did not value add a single cent, nor have me change anything, cost in excess of $2300. remember, Vicroads just want the document for their records and don't charge for any upgrade advice.