Snatch strap query

[michaelgreeny]

G'day guys,

Sorry if this has already been covered but I couldn't find this information anywhere..strangely enough.

We've got a 11,000 ARB snatch strap, they didn't have any 8,000 left so upgraded us, our friends have an 8,000 strap (I think).

Question is. Which one do we use? We have a GU patrol and they have an older Triton ute, obviously lighter than us.

Should you use a strap suited to the lighter car, heavier car, the one thats bogged etc? What would you do if you were pulling out a Suzuki Sierra?

Cheers

[AB]

MudRunnerTD

Your time to shine mate ;)

[MudRunnerTD]

This is a really important question. The answer is you should use the strap appropriate for the weight. The problem with just going big is the strap is designed to provide kinetic assistance and appropriate stretch according to its rating. If you used your 11k strap pulling out a Zook you might as well use your winch extension strap as it will not stretch at all and will be a bloody solid hit.

You want the snatch to be a gentle stretch and launch via kinetic energy stored in the strap. If the strap doesn't stretch as there is no s not enough weight it will send the impact right through your recover points, chassis and car.

I would be hesitant using the 11k on your GU and wouldn't use it on the triton at all. Save it for if you have your trailer on too. I won a 15k snatch years ago and it's still in the packet!


BUT. Big BUT! Snatch recoveries are over rated. I would rethink a snatch recovery every time if there was a winch option. If it's a heavy bog then leave the snatch in the drawer and run the winch out. Snatch recoveries are dangerous. Shit gets real and people die. Go the winch.

NEVER USE A TOW BALL AS PART OF YOUR RECOVERY. PEOPLE WILL DIE.

[MudRunnerTD]

Here is a recovery hook off the front of my GQ that failed during a heavy snatch.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2016/06/191.jpg

This hook broke and launched via the snatch and fortunately pierced straight through the Long Range Fuel tank of the GQ Ute snatching me. Lucky it hit the diesel fuel cell and not through the rear wall of the ute cab.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk cause AB turned it back on!!

[Rossco]

BUT. Big BUT! Snatch recoveries are over rated. I would rethink a snatch recovery every time if there was a winch option. If it's a heavy bog then leave the snatch in the drawer and run the winch out. Snatch recoveries are dangerous. Shit gets real and people die. Go the winch.



Very true snatchs have their place but seriously can't remember the last time i used one. If you've got one, winch is much better option, much more controled safe and effective.

[MB]

MudRunnerTD Your time to shine mate ;)
Not so funny, a little, but as young blokes we watched our old man accidentally rip the bullbar off an ex-Military Rover getting back out of the old old Zeka 'Creek' track from Gatta. Quite a sight to see, entire bullbar launched uphill 35+ degrees and nearly took out his truck. Sound knowledge and experience like MRTD's wasn't really around back then :-(!

[Winnie]

Very true snatchs have their place but seriously can't remember the last time i used one. If you've got one, winch is much better option, much more controled safe and effective.
Yep, used to always go straight for the snatch strap but in the last few years I don't think I have used one?
I will use the winch every time if it is an option.

[Rossco]

Yep, used to always go straight for the snatch strap but in the last few years I don't think I have used one?
I will use the winch every time if it is an option.
Any excuse to pull out the high mount [emoji6] [emoji6] . . .

[MB]

Any excuse to pull out the high mount [emoji6] [emoji6] . . .
They need to create a 'whip cracking' emoji thingo, have you finished rebuilding mine yet Mr Rossco, just jokes, you're a legend, thanks heaps :-) AB will get around to ordering the parts one of these days ;-) !!

[the evil twin]

G'day guys,

Sorry if this has already been covered but I couldn't find this information anywhere..strangely enough.

We've got a 11,000 ARB snatch strap, they didn't have any 8,000 left so upgraded us, our friends have an 8,000 strap (I think).

Question is. Which one do we use? We have a GU patrol and they have an older Triton ute, obviously lighter than us.

Should you use a strap suited to the lighter car, heavier car, the one thats bogged etc? What would you do if you were pulling out a Suzuki Sierra?

Cheers

Snatch strap rating should be 2 to no more than 3 times the actual weight of the lightest vehicle in the snatch.

If you haven't used the 11,000 Kg one I would take it back as they haven't upgraded you at all.
All they did was find a way to take your money when they were out of stock of the item you needed rather than get you one in or have you go elsewhere.

... and when snatching out a Sierra use either their strap or the 'laccy out of your jocks

[MB]

Snatch strap rating should be 2 to no more than 3 times the actual weight of the lightest vehicle in the snatch. If you haven't used the 11,000 Kg one I would take it back as they haven't upgraded you at all. All they did was find a way to take your money when they were out of stock of the item you needed rather than get you one in or have you go elsewhere.
Well done ET, makes sense :-)

[AB]

Not so funny, a little, but as young blokes we watched our old man accidentally rip the bullbar off an ex-Military Rover getting back out of the old old Zeka 'Creek' track from Gatta. Quite a sight to see, entire bullbar launched uphill 35+ degrees and nearly took out his truck. Sound knowledge and experience like MRTD's wasn't really around back then :-(! Tree falling on us, wombat holes caving our hilux, kids used as weights. Living the 80's!!!

[the evil twin]

Well done ET, makes sense :-)

Rare, but I try on certain subjects... dangerous shit like Kinetic Recoveries is one of the subjects (Dom electrocuting himself is not)

See what I did there?

[MudRunnerTD]

Snatch strap rating should be 2 to no more than 3 times the actual weight of the lightest vehicle in the snatch.

If you haven't used the 11,000 Kg one I would take it back as they haven't upgraded you at all.
All they did was find a way to take your money when they were out of stock of the item you needed rather than get you one in or have you go elsewhere.


And probably sold you stock they couldn't move off the shelf.

[MB]

Rare, but I try on certain subjects... dangerous shit like Kinetic Recoveries is one of the subjects (Dom electrocuting himself is not) See what I did there?
I believe, there's always method to your sanity :-)

[michaelgreeny]

Thanks guys,

Appreciate the replies, you're all a wealth of knowledge.

Next time I'm in town I'll head in and change it over for an 8,000. Haven't even opened the box yet.

Cheers all.

[BillsGU]

I think of a snatch strap as being a "fuse". If, at worse case, something breaks - I would prfer it to be the strap rather than rip a piece off a vehicle. That's why I never use a strap for a Patrol or "normal" size 4WD larger than 8000 kg. With smaller cars, as already stated, use their strap (recovery protocol implies that the stuck vehicle supplies the gear but this is not always possible) or just tow them out rather than snatching them.

A snatch strap if used properly is a very effective, quick and useful device - but in the wrong hands it can be a WMD!

[threedogs]

Here is a recovery hook off the front of my GQ that failed during a heavy snatch.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2016/06/191.jpg

This hook broke and launched via the snatch and fortunately pierced straight through the Long Range Fuel tank of the GQ Ute snatching me. Lucky it hit the diesel fuel cell and not through the rear wall of the ute cab.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk cause AB turned it back on!!

Thats the first time Ive seen one of those hooks break like that,
the ones Ive seen tended to stretch after the two bolts.
When I used the troopy and 350 chev I only towed most ppl cause
unless its a long bog hole you are normally stuck for only 1 mtr
after that you're fine.
Same as a 6.5 chev powered Patrol I would have thought with all that power
a tow out would be very easy. lol

[BillsGU]

Doesn't matter how much Power you have TD - you still need traction when towing. That's the thing about a snatch recovery. When the ground is wet / muddy / sandy whatever, the energy contained in the strap has a chance to pull the bogged vehicle out with minimum traction required from the tug.

Sure - always try a tow first - but sometimes it just won't work.

[mudski]

Very true snatchs have their place but seriously can't remember the last time i used one. If you've got one, winch is much better option, much more controled safe and effective.
It's alright for you blokes with a high mount. I can make a cuppa in the time the slow mount is out and working. Lol.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Tapatalk

[Winnie]

Have you got in cab winch control switches? That makes it a lot quicker because you literally just push a button and the winch is ready to go.

[Rossco]

Speaking of winches and dodgey recovery practices, apparently a bloke from work was talking to a ranger up near Gentle Annie, Gembrook / Powely area. Anyway apparently recently a guy was winching himself up the track somewhere there out of the vehicle using a wireless controller, rope snapped then he watched his 4by sail of into the bush by itself! ! But of a lesson to be learnt I'm sure. . .

[mudski]

Have you got in cab winch control switches? That makes it a lot quicker because you literally just push a button and the winch is ready to go.

No. As my control box is hidden under the bar and the winch needs to be removed to open it up and wire it in. But. I am removing the winch soon as part of my weight loss program for the engineers so if I can figure out how to wire a switch up I will.

[mudski]

Speaking of winches and dodgey recovery practices, apparently a bloke from work was talking to a ranger up near Gentle Annie, Gembrook / Powely area. Anyway apparently recently a guy was winching himself up the track somewhere there out of the vehicle using a wireless controller, rope snapped then he watched his 4by sail of into the bush by itself! ! But of a lesson to be learnt I'm sure. . .

Aww god! I dunno whats worse. Watching your pride and joy roll backwards into the trees or actually being in it and having that pucker moment before hitting the brakes to stop it.

[Winnie]

No. As my control box is hidden under the bar and the winch needs to be removed to open it up and wire it in. But. I am removing the winch soon as part of my weight loss program for the engineers so if I can figure out how to wire a switch up I will.

I very highly recommend it. One of the best things I did when I did the high mount.

[Punderhead]

Since I installed the high mount I have only used the snatchy once on the ute, where the person behind me was bogged, and I had a precisely 0% chance of turning around on the wet hill I was on.

Other than that, I have used it with the gu in the last few weekends in the mud, only been fairly light work. But even then you can still feel the jolt, and so I only do light work.

The only times I would use a snatch are:

When a winch just isn't possible.

When someone just can't quite make it out, and they don't need much, just a slight tow.

To pull someone out of a boghole where they are taking on water. (Still won't go stupid, and if it doesn't work I will revert to winching, and the fault is all theirs)

And on the beach I normally just reach for the good old snatchy aswell

Everything else is normally safer and quicker for me to use the winch. (And definitely go in cab controls, sooooo good!!)

And yeah, always use rated recovery points, no matter how light the snatch/winch is!

Cheers!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Robo]

There's alot to be said for reading real world learnt safety and experience tips.

Maybe this is the case I don't know.
It should be compulsory to have large warning print on snatch strap packaging (or storage bag would be better) with "tips" on how use one.
And a suggestion for strap size needed for the actual vehicle sizes involved in the recovery.

Thinking duty of care needs to come in here somewhere.
That being said.
Tie down points should have a warnings stamped into/near/line of sight , "tie down point only".
Tow balls for that matter also.
I work with some dumb sh#ts that would hook up to either of these and think nothing of it.
Yeah let em hurt themselves!.
but the problem is, it cost the community,and or, and its normally the case, they hurt or kill an innocent passer by instead.
rant rant, guess I'm sick of paying taxes to prop up a so n so.

[Winnie]

Are they really stupid for using those points to snatch recover?
I think they're only stupid if they know the risk but do it anyway. Otherwise they're just uneducated.

[4bye4]

There's alot to be said for reading real world learnt safety and experience tips.

Maybe this is the case I don't know.
It should be compulsory to have large warning print on snatch strap packaging (or storage bag would be better) with "tips" on how use one.
And a suggestion for strap size needed for the actual vehicle sizes involved in the recovery.

Thinking duty of care needs to come in here somewhere.
That being said.
Tie down points should have a warnings stamped into/near/line of sight , "tie down point only".
Tow balls for that matter also.
I work with some dumb sh#ts that would hook up to either of these and think nothing of it.
Yeah let em hurt themselves!.
but the problem is, it cost the community,and or, and its normally the case, they hurt or kill an innocent passer by instead.
rant rant, guess I'm sick of paying taxes to prop up a so n so.

A nice idea mate but suppliers/manufacturers are only going to do that if it is; A Required by law or B Going to sell more product (or the same amount at a higher price.)
If it is required by law, it will be just another thing to yellow sticker or fine 4wd drivers for, even if it is a national snandard and doesn't change from stste to state. If it is introduced by reputable manufacturers, their pricing would have to increase to have the stamping done and they would be at a disadvantage to on line sellers in other countries. Even if the idea was accepted in one way or the other, the legislation and promolgation would take longer than Brexit. I guess the best way is to keep discussing the use and dangers of all this gear and keep each other aware using forums like this one. Look after each other.

[BillsGU]

If tie down points are only required when shipping a vehicle from overseas - why aren't they removed when they land in Australia? That would solve one of the problems.

[taslucas]

If tie down points are only required when shipping a vehicle from overseas - why aren't they removed when they land in Australia? That would solve one of the problems.
Because there's no law against using them to recover, it's just a bad idea.
Manufacturers or dealers don't want to pay to remove them.
In a lot of vehicles the tie down is part of the sub frame and can't be removed.
The tie down may come in handy if the vehicle needs to be trucked or ferried another time in its life.

>>>tappin from tassie

[Robo]

A nice idea mate but suppliers/manufacturers are only going to do that if it is; A Required by law or B Going to sell more product (or the same amount at a higher price.)
If it is required by law, it will be just another thing to yellow sticker or fine 4wd drivers for, even if it is a national snandard and doesn't change from stste to state. If it is introduced by reputable manufacturers, their pricing would have to increase to have the stamping done and they would be at a disadvantage to on line sellers in other countries. Even if the idea was accepted in one way or the other, the legislation and promolgation would take longer than Brexit. I guess the best way is to keep discussing the use and dangers of all this gear and keep each other aware using forums like this one. Look after each other.

The underlying problem is how many people actually know or take the time to find out the best way to recover.
With a simple warning/tip on the product at least it's in their face and the odds of a safer recovery should increase.
Yep site like this have improved things, I cast a vote here learnt heaps reading threads.
But new comers are basically on their own, this may/should catch em on the blocks before they dive in.
maybe even stop em getting an up-sized strap they will never use (no offence) or undersized.

sellers may actually sell more gear as a result.
"you really should have a bridle mate, oh and proper recovery points also, as there bolted on not tack welded on". etc etc
I don't see how a sticker/tag a disadvantage to a product if it could save a life and a sticker/tag would add what 15 cents to a product.
what company would be out of pocket by such a small amount maybe they sell more product.
I know I'm going to buy a bridle now and a result from reading this thread, not in my face at the shop.

legalities I hear, "Guide only, as end use is out of manufactures control" I've read that many a time on products.

[4bye4]

The underlying problem is how many people actually know or take the time to find out the best way to recover.
With a simple warning/tip on the product at least it's in their face and the odds of a safer recovery should increase.
Yep site like this have improved things, I cast a vote here learnt heaps reading threads.
But new comers are basically on their own, this may/should catch em on the blocks before they dive in.
maybe even stop em getting an up-sized strap they will never use (no offence) or undersized.

sellers may actually sell more gear as a result.
"you really should have a bridle mate, oh and proper recovery points also, as there bolted on not tack welded on". etc etc
I don't see how a sticker/tag a disadvantage to a product if it could save a life and a sticker/tag would add what 15 cents to a product.
what company would be out of pocket by such a small amount maybe they sell more product.
I know I'm going to buy a bridle now and a result from reading this thread, not in my face at the shop.

legalities I hear, "Guide only, as end use is out of manufactures control" I've read that many a time on products.

I agree with you completely Robo and wasn't trying to argue the point. Its just that I have experienced a lot of feedback from suppliers/manufacturers who finally judge with the question "how much will it cost".
Best idea is for groups like us to keep pushing and ensuring what we do is safe and seen to be safe.
Speaking of warnings, this one from a piece of equipment I get in from Italy. 67900 Still haven't worket out what a flightling is.

[threedogs]

Any news about that 17 yo kid that copped a shackle to the
back of his head in NSW when a recovery went wrong some
time last year I think

[the evil twin]

snip...
Speaking of warnings, this one from a piece of equipment I get in from Italy. 67900 Still haven't worket out what a flightling is.

Is it a Boring Machine, Elevator or Auger or somesuch?

'Flighting' is the spiral pitch that moves material along a rotating shaft

[Touses]

Is it a Boring Machine, Elevator or Auger or somesuch?

'Flighting' is the spiral pitch that moves material along a rotating shaft

'Flighting' is what I take when something scares the 'Shitting' out of me!

[4bye4]

Is it a Boring Machine, Elevator or Auger or somesuch?

'Flighting' is the spiral pitch that moves material along a rotating shaft

Its a car park suction sweeper.

[threedogs]

Does anyone have a rated WSR bridle made to suit their Patrol.

[the evil twin]

Its a car park suction sweeper.

Thats what it will be then... not a term you hear very often I must admit

[4bye4]

Thats what it will be then... not a term you hear very often I must admit

And the point of a warning to beware of an item when no one knows what it is, is?. I got blood on the keyboard from my severed fingers when I was googling the definition.

[the evil twin]

Does anyone have a rated WSR bridle made to suit their Patrol.

Yep, I made my Bridle out of 22mm Dyneema with locked Brummel Eyes each end and it is rated as 'awesome', '40 tons' or 'Holeee Shitbags' depending on which standard you use

[the evil twin]

And the point of a warning to beware of an item when no one knows what it is, is?. I got blood on the keyboard from my severed fingers when I was googling the definition.

Hehehehe... yeah, I s'pose but on the other hand it is the correct engineering term...
Better than 'Archimedean Screw Looking Thingymebob" not as good as" Insert fingers to be removed here".

[threedogs]

Thats what Im talking about, everyone should have one sitting in their Patrol
when going off road, central forces in a controll manner , thats a win I say,,,lol

[4bye4]

Probably time to return the thread to its original topic[emoji1]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[the evil twin]

Probably time to return the thread to its original topic[emoji1]



Not off topic at all... one cannot state unequivocally that one will never, ever have occasion to snatch a Car Park Sweeper.

[BillsGU]

The tie down may come in handy if the vehicle needs to be trucked or ferried another time in its life.

I have seen a number of vehicles tied down on tow trucks and trains. The ones I have seen are always tied down by straps over the wheels. I can't remember any that used the factory tie downs. What do they do on the ferry to Tassie if it gets rough?

[BillsGU]

Yep, I made my Bridle out of 22mm Dyneema with locked Brummel Eyes each end and it is rated as 'awesome', '40 tons' or 'Holeee Shitbags' depending on which standard you use

I use a simple lifting sling rated to lift 4T - which means it is good for 10T when used to recover (4X5/2). It is endless so it does not need any eyes or such - you just feed the sling through the eye of the strap and anchor it to the recovery points with shackles.

[BillsGU]

Not off topic at all... one cannot state unequivocally that one will never, ever have occasion to snatch a Car Park Sweeper.

True. I have had to snatch the postie's ute out of a drain in front of the house - where she disappeared into in reverse after delivering a parcel. The look on her face was priceless.

[4bye4]

True. I have had to snatch the postie's ute out of a drain in front of the house - where she disappeared into in reverse after delivering a parcel. The look on her face was priceless.

Did she have a rated recovery point?

[BillsGU]

Did she have a rated recovery point?

Not on a ford ute! I actually towed her out rather than snatch - but it still scared the bejaysus out of her.

[taslucas]

I have seen a number of vehicles tied down on tow trucks and trains. The ones I have seen are always tied down by straps over the wheels. I can't remember any that used the factory tie downs. What do they do on the ferry to Tassie if it gets rough?
Yeah you're right, straps over the wheels is the usual way. Lol, by the looks of it they don't use much on the spirit. Did you see the carnage a few weeks ago!?
I think it depends on which deck you Park on.

>>>tappin from tassie

[taslucas]

http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/ferry-rough-night-on-spirit-of-tasmania-leaves-trucks-cars-smashed-20160504-golshc.html

>>>tappin from tassie

[BillsGU]

Yep - should have used a strap around the wheels .......................................

[Robo]

I agree with you completely Robo and wasn't trying to argue the point. Its just that I have experienced a lot of feedback from suppliers/manufacturers who finally judge with the question "how much will it cost".
Best idea is for groups like us to keep pushing and ensuring what we do is safe and seen to be safe.
Speaking of warnings, this one from a piece of equipment I get in from Italy. 67900 Still haven't worket out what a flightling is.

No offence taken Mate.
Safety first, gets you, your family & friends there in one piece, Is always a good thing hey.

[DaveGQ]

3m Tree Trunk protector being sold as a "Snatch Strap"

This really shits me.... whether it's just an innocent typo or an intentional attempt to misrepresent a product, it's still F***ING dangerous. Some poor beginner will probably buy it and use it as a snatch strap.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Snatch-Strap-12000kg-4WD-Recovery-Tow-3m-x-75mm-Trunk-Protector-Thorny-Devil-/252221705324?hash=item3ab995cc6c:g:iysAAOSwo3pWeNG o

"This special snatch strap also protects the environment as you explore it."

I've sent a message to the seller.

[Robo]

3m Tree Trunk protector being sold as a "Snatch Strap"

This really shits me.... whether it's just an innocent typo or an intentional attempt to misrepresent a product, it's still F***ING dangerous. Some poor beginner will probably buy it and use it as a snatch strap.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Snatch-Strap-12000kg-4WD-Recovery-Tow-3m-x-75mm-Trunk-Protector-Thorny-Devil-/252221705324?hash=item3ab995cc6c:g:iysAAOSwo3pWeNG o

"This special snatch strap also protects the environment as you explore it."

I've sent a message to the seller.

VERY common practice on that site to include market place words in the main description, = more search return hits.
Even if it's not the intended use of the product.
Not sticking up for them, just pointing out how some sellers try to improve hits on their item.

[Robo]

I agree with you completely Robo and wasn't trying to argue the point. Its just that I have experienced a lot of feedback from suppliers/manufacturers who finally judge with the question "how much will it cost".
Best idea is for groups like us to keep pushing and ensuring what we do is safe and seen to be safe.
Speaking of warnings, this one from a piece of equipment I get in from Italy. 67900 Still haven't worket out what a flightling is.

Wiki search=
Flighting is an advertising term for a timing pattern in which commercials are scheduled to run during intervals that are separated by periods in which no advertising messages appear for the advertised item.

[the evil twin]

Wiki search=
Flighting is an advertising term for a timing pattern in which commercials are scheduled to run during intervals that are separated by periods in which no advertising messages appear for the advertised item.


True but not in this sense... in this case they are referring to the 'engineering' term, "flight" of stairs is another


Is it a Boring Machine, Elevator or Auger or somesuch?


'Flighting' is the spiral pitch that moves material along a rotating shaft

[4bye4]

True but not in this sense... in this case they are referring to the 'engineering' term

Ok I started it so I'll try to finish it. The machine is in fact a large commercial leaf and debris sucker. The warning is on the case near where the fan is rotating, by fan read impellor, 4 bladed heavy chopperupper. So none of the offered definitions really fit. But and you will notice it is a big but, the same company also makes tractors and AUGERS. I recon the safety chief has said "we must place warning stickers on this cover" and the sticker puter oner has just done that using the warning stickers he or she has. The machinery is from Italy so there is also a chance the aforementioned puter oner may not speak or read english and just knows the sticker is a warning.

[Cuppa]

Snatch strap rating should be 2 to no more than 3 times the actual weight of the lightest vehicle in the snatch.



I bought my , as yet unused snatch strap early on in my Patrol ownership & had never had one before. Our Patrol is around 3700kg in travel ready guise & I guess we could add around 1400kg for a fully laden Tvan - so a max of around a bit over 5 tonne. The strap I have is a 1200kg one. Nevertheless I've had a nagging doubt for some time that the 1200kg rating is too high , particularly if I either need to snatch someone else, or if I need the Patrol to be snatched solo. Last week our local 4wd club had a 'silent auction' for some donated gear to raise money for a charity & I scored an ARB 8000kg strap for $65. I suspect the best strategy would be to carry both straps but with a preference to use the 8000kg, keeping the 1200kg as a last resort. Does this sound reasonable?

I understand that winching is the preferable option where feasible.

[liftlid]

Your last resort is the winch, snatch recovery are light recovery only

[BillsGU]

I always think of the snatch strap as a sort of "fuse", but sorry - I have said this before.

[Cuppa]

Your last resort is the winch, snatch recovery are light recovery only

Yep, I meant ‘last resort’ in regard to choice between the two different rated snatch straps. I have however noted other’s preference to use a winch in preference to a snatch strap whenever feasible.

[GQtdauto]

Great Demo on the downsides of snatch straps just wished he'd used a towball instead of a bow shackle but the result is still frightening.

https://www.facebook.com/madmatt4wd/videos/1614837831919500/