The Outback Comms Chat Thread.

[Cuppa]

Yeah I know it's Toyota.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K9wmGYBqRI



***EDIT. Hey Cuppa I have changed the name of the thread as this evolves into an Outback Comms chat.

[Stropp]

no reason why you couldnt put them on any vehicle, they will charge for them anyway.

[Maxhead]

Wow, that's pretty cool!

Don't know if I'm ganna buy a Toyota but I like it.

This will be the way of the future though






….................... On the move

[nipagu7]

how much is the unit worth ? does it notify the drivers of the cars that the signal passes thru to get to a node . if it does'nt and they couldnot help , it might be better to have a personal epirb .the signal would probably get to the authorities faster . the spot epirbs are about $200 .

[jack]

I was looking at this last night, great idea but still limited to 25km at the moment.
Range will improve I'm sure.

[the evil twin]

First big press release I've seen on it and still very early days and lots to sort out.

For remote travel it won't come anywhere near the safety, versatility or response of a Sat Phone/HF/messaging EPIRB for a while yet.
For the long term it will stand or fall on how well the integration works with the Carriers.

HF - very much in the twilight years and very high initial costs but still allows you to "broadcast"
EPIRB - no comms or limited comms for a messaging version such as spot but cheap, extremely reliable and fast emergency response
Sat Phone - most versatile and dual band (Sat and Mobile) are smaller and cheaper than they have ever been albeit still very hefty access charges.

Mobile telco networking - bit of a compromise of all 3 in various ways in that it gets rid of the disadvantages of most but doesn't pick up on any major advantages

[mudski]

Good idea. For sure. But how many Landcruisers do they think will be in range of each other in the middle of ship creek at any given time? Going by there ad. Lots.
Still a good idea though.



Sent from my GT-N7105T using Tapatalk

[the evil twin]

snip... But how many Landcruisers do they think will be in range of each other in the middle of ship creek at any given time? Going by there ad. Lots.


Hehehe... maybe a dozen or more... all bogged or broken within a few hundred metres of each other.
Could save on technology and use two empty cans and a piece of string to sort out which one the burn first to keep warm

(sorry, just an image that flashed thru my mind I felt I had to share)

[AGman]

SpaceX (and other companies working in the same field) and the reduction in launch costs for satellites and therefore their running costs, will bury this.

[macca]

Yes the beginning, not so sure Toyota has hit its public service / public relations on target though.

I can say with all honesty, if a Toyota, a Jeep, a Suzuki or any other brand had it's driver in need of assistance my PLB will be switched on no matter what they drive.

So FU Toyota, we are all together when the chips are down and I'm astounded you don't realize this.

A good idea starts somewhere, here hoping Toyota make sure every vehicle in the bush gets one of these.

That will be a public service / public relations coup.

[LostBenji]

I call BULLSHIT!

"Using Wi-Fi signalling to reach up to 25KM"
Under current ACMA licensing and the physical size of that unit, several hundred meters at best for current Legal and safe RF power limits.

To travel long distances, you need power frequencies like VHF or HF. UHF and microwave is NOT for long distance comms (unless using fixed, high gain antennas with LoS (Line of Sight)).

Before going to remote areas alone, you take a EPIRB and/or have HF radio or SAT phone.




You can also get legal high-gain mobile network repeaters from Cel-Fi shortly (Cel-Fi GO) that will enable longer range comms in fringe areas. http://cel-fi.com.au/cel_fi_go_repeater.html

Just for the record, eBay (or any other source) bought repeaters from anywhere other than Cel-Fi are illegal!

[the evil twin]

I call BULLSHIT!

"Using Wi-Fi signalling to reach up to 25KM"
Under current ACMA licensing and the physical size of that unit, several hundred meters at best for current Legal and safe RF power limits.

To travel long distances, you need power frequencies like VHF or HF. UHF and microwave is NOT for long distance comms (unless using fixed, high gain antennas with LoS (Line of Sight)).

Before going to remote areas alone, you take a EPIRB and/or have HF radio or SAT phone.




You can also get legal high-gain mobile network repeaters from Cel-Fi shortly (Cel-Fi GO) that will enable longer range comms in fringe areas. http://cel-fi.com.au/cel_fi_go_repeater.html

Just for the record, eBay (or any other source) bought repeaters from anywhere other than Cel-Fi are illegal!

You might need to do a bit more research before you scream "BULLSHIT" quite so loudly mate...

Yes, the Bullshit comment aside, the majority of your post is correct in broad terms and totally agree with the illegal repeaters comments.

This system is not a repeater and the application is for nil coverage not fringe boosting.

My understanding is very limited as I have no 'inside' info only an interest due to it's potential for some of my work sites is:
The initial research is world first based at Flinders Uni and first successful field trials were about 4 years ago
The system uses wi-fi and UHF (probably to get the range as you correctly mention) to connect and runs off technology developed by researchers who won a 1/4 million dollar award recently.
The system was initiallly an idea to allow peer to peer comms on mobile phones in an area where no infrastructure exists or has failed.

Again I stress only as far as I understand it, an Android App allows voice to other meshed phones in range and the system will also store and transfer data and messages from phone to phone without the need for any carrier backbone or connectivity but if a phone does get within range of a Tower or suitable Base the App will then "hop" the data/message onto the Telco network.

The disaster relief and emergency service organisations are all very interested and I think it has already been deployed with the Red Cross in teh pacific somewhere or other

Some bloody smart fellas we have here in Oz eh

[LostBenji]

Hey ET,
I take what you have said with much respect. Where I call the BS is the simple physics and fundamentals in play.

The device in the video measures roughly 10 inches long and around 3.5 inches in diameter. This means any antenna will have to be either rather small and low gain or be using much higher frequencies as indicated in the promo video, Wi-Fi which uses microwave frequencies of the 2.4GHz or 5GHz ISM bands. These currently have a legal power of 4W EIRP (very rough here as there much lower limits in some of these spectrum's). The device will need to have an omnidirectional antenna which leads to very low gains and makes them rather inefficient. 1/4 wave, maybe 1/2 wave at best for 2.4GHz which means to do the range of 25KM, you don't want to be anywhere near it as those are big power levels. There is the other requirement; others of these to being in range at some stage. So in some areas where you may not see another person, let alone a Toyota packing one of these, for days, I hope your message is not important.

UHF, nope, it lacks the carry of VHF or HF. Power limits low as well. A mine site will already run a comms system as would any other operation. VHF low-band, 25W radios on 2dBi whip can do over 150 to a repeater or well over 100 to another vehicle.


Please, don't get me wrong, anything to improve comms in the weeds is good but lets not miss the white elephants sitting in the room.
HF, it has been around for longer than anyone reading these forums. Radios pack 100W and even with low-gain whip, short-path comms to anywhere in Aus is possible. Long-path with conditions as well.
SAT phones are not cheap but if installed or deployed correctly (roof-top antenna, not crappy omni on end of phone) works very well.
Emergencies, 406MHz EPIRB, hit the tit, you will be found pretty quickly, especially if GPS equipped.

Anyway, I have said my piece.

[BigRAWesty]

Well it is an awesome idea..
As mentioned before I think the 25km range is its down fall though..
I think you'd have to be very lucky to land a car with another unit in it within 25km.
And it could take some days for that message to reach mobile service to pass the data on..

By all means it has some awesome potential.. hopefully it gets pushed..
It's pretty cool..

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

[the evil twin]

I think you guys are maybe missing the point of this gear...

Your existing mobile phone has a range of up to 20 odd K's
I have a couple of telemetry sites that are even further out where Telstra have Boomer Cells.
Is that a downfall?
Obviously not because there are zillions of the things
The downfall is that a mobile currently needs a Carrier connection to work or it cannot even call the dude sitting in the car next to you.
This system takes away that need for a Carrier Cell.
The app and the technology package allows the phones to network amongst themselves.

This isn't a Toyota thing nor is it solely for outback Oz.
Specifically to the the outback SA trial it is just another use that the researchers hypothesised and have now proven.
Toyota are the vehicle participants of the trial and it could have been Nissan, Mitsi or anyone.
Toyota are now getting a bit of ROI by advertising etc.
If it goes mainstream anyone can use it, it is just that Toyo put some bikkies up.
It may go commercial or stay as a tool for disaster/emergency relief or it may fizz

HF is all but dead, the equipment is expensive, bulky, difficult to install, power hungry and needs a licence and some expertise to use.
(I have Marine Licences for work and also Land Mobile HF licences and run a Codan NGT in my Trol and have been known to lug around a HF manpack for SES on occasion and they are freakin' heavy)

Satphones are expensive and even more so to subscribe currently but rates may get slightly cheaper.
(I have an Irridium I got for $200 and use the Telstra $10 a month access and call charges are about $2 per 30 seconds)

Epirbs do not allow peer to peer comms

Anyway, too early to call I s'pose

[LostBenji]

Sounds a lot like the tech is trying to "Enable" ill-prepared people to travel in remote areas with a false sense of security.

For all that it is going to achieve, 2-way radio has beaten it already beaten it.

25KM range out of device that small and no external antenna.... Nope.

[MudRunnerTD]

Thank you to everyone in this thread! Some very smart guys in the room.

I am going to change the name of the thread to "Outback Coms chat thread"

[the evil twin]

Sounds a lot like the tech is trying to "Enable" ill-prepared people to travel in remote areas with a false sense of security.

For all that it is going to achieve, 2-way radio has beaten it already beaten it.

25KM range out of device that small and no external antenna.... Nope.

Serval is not about Outback Travel, that is just a very small spin off from the ideals of the technology.
Probably only even evolved because the dudes are Australian and we have an Outback.
If it had of been European they would never even have imagined that use I reckon.

But seeing as how Outback travel is what triggered the thread the advantages of this technology for outback users are:
Your useless mobile phone is no longer useless anymore but becomes another viable tool
Serval does not require both stations to be on the same band, frequency and manned
Serval will do voice
Serval will store and forward messaging
Serval will geotag

Over here in WA we have totally shit mobile coverage, not even the highways have acceptable levels.
We cannot travel from Perth to Geraldton or Albany on the national highway with coverage all the way
Past Gerro and Albany you can travel on National Route 1 with maybe 50% connectivity.
Travel the bitumen back roads and that will be hours, travel the dirt and it will be days

Perth to Albany or Gerro, of each 100 cars and trucks that you see I estimate 99% will have a mobile phone, maybe 25% will have a two way (trucks, farmers and 4X's) and less than 5% will have a Satphone or EPIRB

My most recent breakdown in central Oz 2 years ago I used Satphone and finally when the recovery mob (no HF, Satphone and UHF only) got in range UHF.

I did interact on HF with VKS737 Adelaide as an advisory but only because I have HF as a social tool and hobby and was therefore logged on to them anyway.

Bottom line, Serval is about enabling low cost Cell phone comms on an international level not just the outback of Oz

http://blogs.flinders.edu.au/flinders-news/tag/serval-project/

http://www.servalproject.org/

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.servalproject&hl=en