Question for the winching gurus

[outback]

Re attached picture, (hyper theoretical).

Loaded vehicle, camper trailer in tow.
You start to cross a nice piece of low flat ground and you end up with a stuck situation. Mud past wheel rims but not up to hubs.

You are in big doo doo as wife and kids on board.. Having a brew while thinking out the solution.

Seems to have a firm base but no traction forward. The wheels will spin but no forward movement and not sinking due to wheels digging big holes. Seems mud is just lubricating wheels, no grip.

Ground wet and saturated due to recent rain. No water running in the flat area you are crossing.

So query:
Do you just consider this as mired or a combination of mired and ground conditions.

Both have ramifications in winching.

Options:
Treat it as non mired but only ground?
Treat it as mild mired and ground?
Treat it as only mild mired?
Treat it as some precent between mired to rims and hub, some where between 100% and 200% of Gross Vehicle Load?

Which option should one use in the base winch cals.

[MudRunnerTD]

on the basis that you have a camper in tow i would immediately use a double line pull regardless as the difference in your calculation is certainly close to load limit versus plenty of range in a double line pull.

When in doubt double up.

[outback]

Not disagreeing there. My first impressions would be a minimum of MA of 2:1, the double line pull.

[Maxhead]

Sorry, i don't even understand the wording





..........on the move

[threedogs]

[QUOTE=Nisshead;604423]Sorry, i don't even understand the wording

If mired is like girt then I have no clue lol sorry
You could release the trailer and winch the 4x4 out
90% of times you only need to winch 1mt to free yourself.
Put a shovel under the jockey wheel or Hitch and winch the trailer through second.
I take it this is a solo situation.

[outback]

AS per this link, Recovery Bible:
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?13556-Recovery-Bible

Stuck (mire) resistance:
A pull of 100% of LW will be required if the truck is stuck to a depth of the sidewall on the tires.
A pull of 200% of LW will be required if the truck is stuck to the hubs.
A pull of 300% of LW will be required if the truck is stuck to the frame..


Surface/ground resistance
A pull of 1/10 LW will cause a free wheeling truck to move on a hard, level surface.
A pull of 1/3 LW will cause a free wheeling truck to move on a softer surface, such as grass or gravel,
There is a range of these resistances based on the type of ground/surface.

[threedogs]

Dont think anyone carrys a calculator with them for recoveries.
every situation is different,
eg same place different 4x4, not sure if there is any rule of thumb,
more a common sense thing I reckon

[the evil twin]

If you have no grip IE traction then the surface is obviously very slippery so that means the apparent load on the winch will be low on the scale
Hypothetically maybe 1/4 to 1/2 TW tops

Option A
1. Leave the Camper on
2. Single Line pull and drive out (Low 1st) at the same time, will be about maybe 1,000 Kg load tops (driving reduces apparent load as a % of TW by heaps)
3. If it loads up too much go to Option B

Option B
If you have a snatch block then same as A but rig a 2 to 1 advantage on the cable
If you don't have a Snatch block or it loads up as you attempt to drive go to Option C

Option C
1. Disconnect the trailer
2. work thru A and B as needed
3. Once you are out, rig a skid for the jockey wheel on the trailer and winch it out

Note, if you have to winch a free wheeling vehicle then that is a different issue entirely and loads will be much greater IE in line with what is in the calculator

[Nightjar]

Forget the BS about mired ground blah blah. (Shaking head here)
Just run your winch out to something solid to hitch too, bury your spare if need be.
2nd gear low range and don't touch the throttle, let it idle.
Get your partner to operate winch button or remote and keep wheels straight ahead, pull both vehicle and camper through while you walk along side and shovel any available rocks under wheels..

[outback]

driving reduces apparent load as a % of TW by heaps


Note, if you have to winch a free wheeling vehicle then that is a different issue entirely and loads will be much greater IE in line with what is in the calculator

I am looking at both situations, drive and non drive.
The % reduction in driving seems to be variable though.

[Nightjar]

Good luck.:icon_driving: Be sure to have spare batteries for your calculator.:clownredpuff:

[Rocket55]

That's why you carry a spare winch rope. If you break it, throw in a winch block and go again. :icon_bonk:

[MudRunnerTD]

So understanding that this thread is a Hypothetical conversation with a view of having some form of definitive answer at the end it gets very very difficult. We have to allow for so many things and rely heavily on Education and Common Sense. The later is the most important thing in the bush.

This thread is not about How to you a winch, thats the easy part and if its on your car Any Numb Nuts can press the button. Understanding the Fundamentals of what your Actually doing though is a learning curve everyone should get their heads into.

It really is not good enough to use a winch to Failure, whether that be mechanical or material failure, we should be making judgements before we gat to that stage. If you break a winch rope your likely to be on a fairly steep Incline, in the mud, no grip, fully loaded to breaking strain, when that rope breaks you are potentially going backwards fast or staying very very stuck. I have broken a winch rope a few times, it aint great! fortunately i live in a world of plasma rope so no damage was done except i now have a 28m long rope that started at 45m and has been spliced a few times too. I will be fitting 12mm rope to the highmount but that just moved s the weakest link to something else!

So its not about Hw to use your winch or whether your battery will see the task done. Its about Do You understand how Heavy you are.

Below is a couple of quotes out of my thread Recovery-The-Fundamentals (http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?1984-Recovery-The-Fundamentals)





Basic Winching and the Affect of MUD.

But what if your bogged? If your fourby is bogged in the Mud then the depth of the bog will have a massive affect on the loaded weight of the vehicle.

Below is a guide only for calculating the dead weight of the vehicle when in mud.

Bogged to the Base of the Wheel Rim, you will require a pull of 100% of the load

Bogged to the wheel Hub, the weight doubles! You will require a pull of 200% of the load

Bogged to the Belly or the Chassis and it is x3! You will require a pull of 300% of the load


And lets face it, the later is when winches are really being asked for.

Apply these weight variants to ALL of your RECOVERY gear!

Consider these variations when you are looking at your vehicle and considering how you will extract it form its position. Consider being stuck in the mud to the chassis on a 25degree slope!!!



Rule Number 1

Work Safely, Protect Life.
Determine the load,
Assess the Environment.

THINK!!



I developed this a few years ago with a view that it could be printed and stuck to the back of the sun visor if you wanted.


http://nissanpatrol.com.au/images/SlopevWeightCalculator.png?t=1292414606


At the end of the day when your stuck and need to recover or self recover you need to take some time and give the entire thing some thought. Consider the weakest link and over compensate for potential Load. As i stated in the second post, When in doubt Double up the line.

[threedogs]

@ MR are you extending the spool on the high mount, or havin twin motors ETC
or just running the bigger motor?

[MudRunnerTD]

@ MR are you extending the spool on the high mount, or havin twin motors ETC
or just running the bigger motor?

Hi john,

I have extended the drum and reduced the diameter via a Deltatek +76 air freespool, have a warn 6hp motor with a 24v supply. Going to pull like a train!!

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/05/228.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/05/229.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk cause AB turned it back on!!

[outback]

As I initially stated, this is a Hypothetical question.

In simple terms what I am looking at are the forces being exerted in such a situation, as well as in the ropes and anchor points.

A misjudgement in understanding such forces can possible end up with vehicle damage or rope/anchor failure.

The concept of "drive out" has been raised in this thread and this has a reduction on forces that have to be over come.
At present I have not been able to substantiate what that the effect with a 4x4 is in terms of precent load reduction.
The best information I have found suggests a reduction of 40% but that was not a 4x4.

Other information is that a revers pull over already made tracks will further reduce the load needed by about 10%. This though requires a winch on the back of the vehicle or a second vehicle with a winch. The other option is some of the reverse winching ideas on the web.

[Rocket55]

What happens to the load on the winch and rope etc. when you winch up and over an embankment. You know, when the car is pointing up a significant short hill and the rope is near horizontal going to the anchor point, and when you hit the button you get that fantastic feeling of the front suspension compressing with bugger all forward movement.

I could get the slide rule out and work out the effective forward load, then a bit of Pythagorus' Theorem to work out the winch load based on the angle of the hill, but really once you compress the front end a couple of inches (dependant on spring rates), it's really time to stop and reconsider your options.

[outback]

Thanks for that. More useful than you may have thought.

Anyway it would appear to be more of a futile exercise so it not worth pursuing..

[MudRunnerTD]

What happens to the load on the winch and rope etc. when you winch up and over an embankment. You know, when the car is pointing up a significant short hill and the rope is near horizontal going to the anchor point, and when you hit the button you get that fantastic feeling of the front suspension compressing with bugger all forward movement.

I could get the slide rule out and work out the effective forward load, then a bit of Pythagorus' Theorem to work out the winch load based on the angle of the hill, but really once you compress the front end a couple of inches (dependant on spring rates), it's really time to stop and reconsider your options.

I have broken my rope a couple of times in exactly that circumstance.

[Rocket55]

Yeah it's a bugger of a situation ay. You watch the front compress and then it's seat of the pants stuff as to when to let the button go. This is also how most comp trucks break their ropes. You can build some mega forces real quick.

[lucus30]

Yeah it's a bugger of a situation ay. You watch the front compress and then it's seat of the pants stuff as to when to let the button go. This is also how most comp trucks break their ropes. You can build some mega forces real quick.

As I'm new to the whole winch thing you've given me something to look out for. Never really thought about it before

[threedogs]

As I'm new to the whole winch thing you've given me something to look out for. Never really thought about it before

You can always practice say up Tallarook , under a controlled situation.
as in not neccessarily bogged but using your gear, nothing worse than getting
bogged to the eyeballs and the winch doesnt work, always use a cable blanket
even with plasma, just in case

[lucus30]

Yeah mate I've got the basics down pat. Just need to get out and use it more, I'd say next weekend will be a good opportunity

[Nightjar]

Winches have many uses, here is our Labrador supervising a garden clean up.

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