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threedogs
15th January 2015, 01:53 PM
I mentioned recently that I thought my 80 watt panel was U/S.
Macca suggested to throw it on the roof and power my outside lights with it.
I tried it on my battery that powers my car radio sound system out the back
and after one night it looked like a few volts had leaked back out the panel
as the meter was on 10 volts with no radio going.
So just before I thought Id check the panel before the reg and found I was putting out 19 plus volts
Horay.
This leads me to believe the reg has shite its self, I have had this Smart reg 8 from Piranha
since about '94.
Question is IMO the panel is ok now what type of reg to use, just a 20/50amp one from Jaycar ??

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20A-MPPT-Solar-Panel-Charge-Controller-Regulator-12V-24V-Auto-Waterproof-250W-/390637228949?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item5af3cb1395

WoW how prices have come down I brought that reg for $100 back in '94 and that was with a discount from Alan

Cuppa
15th January 2015, 02:15 PM
You may find the reg is fine & that either there is no blocking diode in the back of the panel, or that it has gone to diode heaven. Jaycar will probably have one for a dollar, it goes between two of the terminals on the rear of the panel.

http://www.solar-facts.com/panels/panel-diodes.php

http://www.marlec.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Blocking-Diode-Instructions.pdf

If it is your reg that is the problem & it was previously had a blocking function (some did, some didn’t) then it may still be regulating ok (Check it’s output same as you did with the panel) & fitting a blocking diode to the panel may suffice. If you do need to buy a new reg you’d probably scrape by with a 5 amp one.

I assume the battery was well charged before you connected it & left it overnight?

threedogs
15th January 2015, 02:25 PM
the multi meter showed 12.9 out of the reg but no Amps or AH
I removed the reg and it rattles so pretty sure its U/S.
Yes that battery was showing about 12.8 so happy to say it leaked out the panel.
Would the small reg on my 20watt panel be too small to test on the 80 watt panel.
Ill have a look at your suggestion thanks bud
All those big black diodes on the back are split in two, panel worked a treat for ages

Cuppa
15th January 2015, 02:46 PM
When you got the 12.9v out of the reg was it still connected to the battery?

You need to measure the panel output & the reg output at much the same time/same light conditions.

Try testing it without it being connected to the battery.

If you still get the higher voltage from the panel than from the reg then the reg is working.

If you tested for amps without the battery being connected you would not get an amp reading.

How & where did you test for amps?

threedogs
15th January 2015, 02:52 PM
tested , well looking at one of those watt meters [blue]
I'll swap regs with my smaller panel and see if thats better
hopefully the sun will come out tomorrow all these clouds are full of rain AtM

the evil twin
15th January 2015, 06:41 PM
Agree with Cuppa, if the battery went down over night the Blocking Diodes are probably shot.

You can't test (reliably) a fair few Solar Regs if no battery is connected as they are trying to sense the battery voltage so you will get some weird readings depending on the type of Voltmeter you use etc.

Having said that it does sound like the Reg is U/S as well.

Is there any chance it has had a lightning strike/near miss at some stage?

threedogs
16th January 2015, 10:06 AM
[QUOTE

Having said that it does sound like the Reg is U/S as well.

[/QUOTE]

Removed the reg as I was pretty sure thats where the fault was and gave it a shake .
I could hear loose pieces so I pulled it apart and the top of two transistors fell out
plus there was a burn mark where they were, So the printed circuit board is US.
That reg cost $100 with a discount about '94. Brought on on ebay today for $14
for a 20 amp reg mppt

Doesn't the reg have blocking function built in ??

threedogs
16th January 2015, 10:46 AM
Heres the reg the burnt out part is near the red wires

the evil twin
16th January 2015, 11:07 AM
Doesn't the reg have blocking function built in ??

Some do, some don't, you will need to check the specs for the Controller.
Also some panels have them and some don't so, again, you need to check.
Your Solar Controller sounds like it was a good one so I am guessing it had a Blocking Diode which must be fried and also the Regulator.
Burn marks and the lid blown of trannies is usually the sign of a lightning strike or very large voltage surge more so than over current but no biggee, it is shagged either way

Any decent panel will have Schottky Blocking Diodes and, possibly, Bypass Diodes on the panel.
Bypass diodes aren't needed in 12 Volt systems but are desireable in 24 and essential in anything higher.
Having one doesn't necessarily mean it has the other.
If there are diodes on the panel, Blocking Diodes will be "inline" in the +ve and Bypass will be between the +ve and -ve.

Edit... just saw the pics and, yeah, given the amount of gear that has been microwaved it got been zapped by something methinks.
Where some of the Diodes used to live looks like the aftermath of a Napalm strike so I am tipping thats your Blocking Diodes gone

threedogs
16th January 2015, 11:32 AM
Remember a while back a very fierce storm up the Murray, and we were pretty sure lightning hit our camp
It was just FLASH/BANG very loud. I don't take the panel often as my AUX battery battery lasts for a weekend running the Engel
[Food only] all drinks are in a big 85 litre Baileys ice box . Plus now with my LED camp lighting even less stress on the battery.
Always have my spare 100ah battery in the camper as well, I charge that at home via solar and also via alternator on the way up.
Yeah been some big lightning events where the panel has been out, Good pick up ET thanks.
I brought that Smart8 reg from Piranha off road years ago so $5 a year its done its job.

In future how can I stop lightning strikes
face the panel away or simply un plug it during a storm ????
Panel would be used mainly over the warmer months
when the storms are about

Must remember to move my 20 watt panel that keeps my Radio battery[backyard] topped up
if there are electrical storms in the area

the evil twin
16th January 2015, 01:45 PM
snip...

In future how can I stop lightning strikes
face the panel away or simply un plug it during a storm ????
Panel would be used mainly over the warmer months
when the storms are about

Must remember to move my 20 watt panel that keeps my Radio battery[backyard] topped up
if there are electrical storms in the area

You can't stop them as such, just reduce the chances of damage etc.
If you have portable panels sitting out on the ground with a nice yummy copper cable snaking over the ground, unplug and stow the panels till the storm passes.
Direction they are facing etc won't matter to Mr Lightning, he's a prettyy indiscrimanant fella.

The odds of portable panels getting a direct hit is quite remote, more likely gear will get damaged from a near miss hitting, say, a tree in close vicinity but even that will be rare.
Doesn't hurt to check voltages and/or happy LED's are doing what they should after a storm.

On a related theme I have seen some awesome damage to electronics and batteries in remote transmitter sites around Oz but those sites have big metal sticks stuck up in the air higher than anything else for miles just asking for a touch up.

Clunk
17th January 2015, 01:48 AM
In future how can I stop lightning strikes



while a storm is going off, stand next to your panels wearing a metal cap with a long spike, yes you may get electrocuted but, lightning doesn't strike in the same place twice

threedogs
22nd January 2015, 03:16 PM
hooked up my solar reg up just to try as Im not familiar with type as my other on was 20 odd years old.
Anyway from the panel I hooked pos and neg to the pos /neg with the panel icon, From there I ran two wires from the
pos/neg battery icon to the pos and neg on the battery.
It showed all red leds on that red sliding graf, solar led is green.
anyway does that sound right, it is very sunny atm

the evil twin
22nd January 2015, 03:42 PM
If that is an MPPT Reg then always make sure you connect the Battery to the Reg first.
PV Regs doesn't matter
LED's sound like they are correct

threedogs
22nd January 2015, 03:53 PM
plan is to have 5mtrs of figure 8 with a merit plug to connect to the panel. at the other end
I'll have a 50 amp anderson plug off the battery to the MPPT reg

the evil twin
22nd January 2015, 04:27 PM
plan is to have 5mtrs of figure 8 with a merit plug to connect to the panel. at the other end
I'll have a 50 amp anderson plug off the batterry to the MPPT reg

I wouldn't use a Merit Plug. Something like an Anderson Powerpole would be heaps better.

Is there a reason you don't want to "hardwire" the Reg to the Battery?
You could simply have 5 metres of cable from the Panel with an Anderson on the cable end that plugs into an Anderson fly lead on the "Panel Connection" of the reg?

Simpler and less connections means less issues and less voltage drops

threedogs
22nd January 2015, 05:26 PM
thats to use my battery box , but I then cant plug the lot into my Patrol.
Maybe I could if I made a small lead 50amp to 50 amp.
6mmsquared over 5 meters should be ok IMO is that correct.
Too bloody hot to play with it today as in lay it out and see what goes where

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 08:41 AM
What I've decided to do is buy a 6" x 4" x 2" project box from Jaycar with a clear lid.
Into that I'll mount the MPPT regulator with 2 x 50 amp anderson plugs bolted to opposite side to the box.
Nice and compact IMO.
As for the panel from the junction box on the back of the panel I'll run 5mtrs of 6mm sqrd fig 8 wire which I
take it should be ok over 5 mtrs, I'll terminate that with another 50 amp anderson plug,
I can then plug it via an anderson from my AUX battery and into my battery box the same way.
If anyone sees something wrong or why it wouldnt work ,happy to hear you

megatexture
23rd January 2015, 09:06 AM
Sounds like how I've got one of my old regs I just keep it as a backup now.

Mines fixed next to the batteries but via Anderson plugs so it can easily be removed and used elsewhere if needed

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 09:15 AM
Thanks Mega you're a star thats what I want it to look like an
as you said still be able to move it around, .
is 6mm figure 8 over 5 mtrs ok

megatexture
23rd January 2015, 09:21 AM
I mainly put it in this to make it waterproof and sand proof for if we go to the beach without the camper. It's also got two solar inputs and one put put to the batt

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 09:34 AM
What size cable do you run to your panels and over what distance???

megatexture
23rd January 2015, 09:44 AM
I've got a few lengths,1x10m and 2x5m all 8mm twin and I've got a 3way splitter/ joiner so I can run 2 panels in different combinations depending on where we are

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 09:56 AM
Ok cool I'll have a look at what Jaycar have on offer.
Technology has come a long way since my old set up was state of art.
My reg was $150 not $100 like I thought, but picked up the 80 watt BHP panel for $150
so think I'm still in front lol
Hi ho Hi ho its off to Jaycar I go lol

Thats very similar to Bobs set up but forgot what his looked like
The wire was the bees knees IMO Jaycar as well I think

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 02:39 PM
Here's what I have done , now all I need to do is plug into which ever battery I want charged.
Plus plug in which panel I want to use.
one problem when I plug the battery side in first it shows what battery condition ??
as two out of 3 red led are showing, instructions are not too flash.
from what I gather the leds go from red to orange to green showing different states of charge

Edit the more I check the more I think this charges differently the battery shows 14 plus volts
using the 80 watt panel

the evil twin
23rd January 2015, 04:03 PM
1st LED -
Charge LED should be green, indicating that the system is charging normally.
The Charge LED will flash green when an overcharge condition or an open battery circuit exists.

2nd LED
The Battery LED is green when the battery voltage is in normal condition above 12.0 volts.
It will blink green slowly when the battery finishes it’s charge which I think is 13.2 float.
Yellow means the battery is below 12.0 volts.
Red when battery is at or below low voltage cutoff which is 11.1 volts and the Load output will switch off.

3rd LED
The load LED is steady red when a load output is operating normally.
If the load current is higher than the rated current the controller will shut down the output and the Load
LED will blink red slowly to indicate that an overload condition occurred.
The Load LED will blink red rapidly if a load short circuit occurs.

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 04:05 PM
With just battery plugged in I get 2 x red lights , checked again before and 3 very bright red lights.
Pretty sure battery is full not sure if its at its fullest though from the other reg
Just unplugged the solar and I get 3 x red lights, when I plug in panel the solar green light flickers
nice and sunny here today too
Might just be a matter of getting used to the new symbols and lights

the evil twin
23rd January 2015, 04:27 PM
Something isn't right, Cobber

LED 1 should be Green with a panel connected
LED 2 should be Green if battery is charged but may take a few minutes to figure it out
LED 3 should be Red

By the way that is not an MPPT Reg either.

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 04:42 PM
I can only put pos / neg to battery icons then to battery
then the pos / neg panel icon to the panel its self
Where have I gone wrong
unplugged the battery showed 13.4volts
connected 14.4
It says its a MPPT solar charge controller Mppt10-60
which could increase efficiency by 10%-30% according to the leaflet
something about SOC function

the evil twin
23rd January 2015, 04:46 PM
I can only put pos / neg to battery icons then to battery
then the pos / neg panel icon to the panel its self
Where have I gone wrong

My bad... I didn't mean you weren't right... I meant something doesn't seem right with the controller itself.

How much did you pay for it and who from?

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 04:59 PM
nah alls good $20 for a 20 amp and it says MPPT controller
What about the connections on the back of panel they would be the only iffy ones
but have used them for years. maybe Ill try my smaller panel and see what that says.

OK just took a measurment at the battery outlet on the reg and came up with 17.5 volts

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/191272225530?var=490393631499&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

the evil twin
23rd January 2015, 05:14 PM
Yeah, they say MPPT but they are full of kaka.
Nothing wrong with that tho, I have several.

$20 is fair enough for what you have (assuming it works).

For others reading this thread a good rule of thumb to suss out if a Reg is MPPT or not is to have a look at the input voltage specs.
Most MPPT regs will take 60, 75 or even 100 volts of panel.
Non MPPT will specify a max voltage of 21 or so for a 12 volt reg

Ebay price for an acceptable quality 10 Amp genuine MPPT Reg will cost about $100 to 300 for top of the wozza, 15 to 20 Amp units about $125 to 400

If you actually have the device then hook the system up and measure the voltage at the solar panel input terminals and the battery output terminals.
If they are the same or within say .2 of a volt that is a normal reg
If the input is 1 or more volts higher then it is a version of an MPPT reg

threedogs
23rd January 2015, 05:26 PM
I'll go to Jaycar tomorrow and see the guys GGGGGGRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrr

the evil twin
23rd January 2015, 06:00 PM
I'll go to Jaycar tomorrow and see the guys GGGGGGRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrr

Did Jaycar sell that Reg to you as an MPPT?

If they did mention to them that they are looking to get their arse hauled thru consumer affairs or worse.
They are absolutely, definitely, 110%, surer thing than Phar Lap not an MPPT device.

megatexture
23rd January 2015, 06:32 PM
Won't be from jcar, they have powertech range ( own brand)

threedogs
24th January 2015, 06:39 AM
not from Jaycar just want it working,
What I have is a solar controller .
What I need is a solar regulator.
Big difference in price well at Jaycar
Pic is a 10 amp Jaycar reg I removed from my 20 watt panel.
The other reg acts the same regardless of panel size
Solar light on green all led's red x 3 and the load light on as I run a car radio out the back
small panel puts out 19 v approx

Here's the weird bit panel on its own puts out 19v thats fine then I plug the controller in and
take a measurement at the first 50 amp plug and it reads 13.45 v

I've unplugged everything and using the battery via the CD player so I'll try later on ,

the evil twin
24th January 2015, 12:38 PM
Whilst not technically 100% correct Controller and Regulator are thrown around without distinction these days in labels and explanation.
For our purposes there are two methods of harnessing the solar power commonly employed.

1 - Usually referred to as Common, PV, PWM etc.
These are the original and much cheaper design.
They work by a simple process of taking whatever voltage is available from the panel and regulating it to the appropriate voltage and applying it to the Battery.
IE when the panel is connected to the device the panel voltage is reduced.

2 - MPPT
These are newer technology and significantly more expensive (genuine ones that is).
They are a DC/DC converter but in the opposite sense to the Redarc and CTEK devices we use on our battery systems
Redarc/Ctek take the fixed voltage, higher current vehicle supply and convert it to higher voltage, lower current to get optimum charge to the Aux batteries.
Solar panels are the opposite to the vehicle in that it is the panel supply that has significantly higher voltage and a a fixed current so MPPT devices use this "extra voltage" to convert the output to fixed charging voltage with a higher current.

That means the panel in an MPPT system is not in common with the battery (loosely speaking) because there is a Toroid and Buck Supply or similar doing a DC DC conversion inside.

Bottom line
Lets say a panel is putting out 19 volts and not connected to a controller.
If you connect the panel to a solar system up and it is charging;
-In a common system the panel voltage will read almost the same as the battery voltage at the device terminals (lets say 13.45 and, oh, 13.2 in the example above)
-In an MPPT system the panel voltage at the device will read higher than the battery voltage, from slightly higher up to 16 or 17 volts depending on the battery SOC.

It is this ability by MPPT to harness the higher voltages and generate a higher charging currents from the same solar panel that leads to the increased efficiency.

threedogs
24th January 2015, 01:01 PM
I'm running the battery down ATM
I just want something that works GGGGRRRRRrrrrrrr

This may explain red led operation

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-10-15-20A-MPPT-Solar-Panel-Regulator-Charge-Controller-12V-24V-Auto-Switch-BOC-/261392830593?pt=AU_Solar&var=&hash=item3cdc3a1081

threedogs
26th January 2015, 08:37 AM
@ ET I try it on another battery I had which was down a bit,
went and checked it this morning and it was showing 12.8v
It started of f on 12.2v, I'm going to try it via the 50 amp plugs
I have front and back of the patrol and see what happens.
But on those results I think I can put this to bed.
thanks for your time and input

the evil twin
26th January 2015, 02:35 PM
My pleasure... always happy to help a fellow dog lover.

Bob
27th January 2015, 09:14 AM
What I've decided to do is buy a 6" x 4" x 2" project box from Jaycar with a clear lid.
Into that I'll mount the MPPT regulator with 2 x 50 amp anderson plugs bolted to opposite side to the box.
Nice and compact IMO.
As for the panel from the junction box on the back of the panel I'll run 5mtrs of 6mm sqrd fig 8 wire which I
take it should be ok over 5 mtrs, I'll terminate that with another 50 amp anderson plug,
I can then plug it via an anderson from my AUX battery and into my battery box the same way.
If anyone sees something wrong or why it wouldnt work ,happy to hear you

I was thinking of putting my Redarc Solar Regulator in a similar Project Box with a clear Lid however I am concerned that it will get quite Hot inside the Box.

Does anyone have any ideas about the Heat

PS
Just checked the Manual for the Redarc Regulator and it operates up to 55 Degrees C and then swithes itself off.

threedogs
27th January 2015, 12:02 PM
Thanks Bob was reading somewhere about having the controller and the battery in similar enviroments.
What I might do is mark and drill a heap of holes or fit a computer fan to it straight off the panel.
I'm sure ET will tell me why this is not a good idea,
55c is achievable if in a box so some kind of ventilation might be the go.
@ Bob that box is about $23 from Jaycar, I just drilled it, but if I did it again I'd buy a piece of PCB to suit
as it has mounting holes and then mount the controller to the PCB this will allow air circulation, but its still in a sealed box eh

threedogs
28th January 2015, 08:31 AM
FYI I can now get my batteries to 14.4v so very happy with that,
so with that result I recommend to 20amp solar controller used

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-24V-5-10A-15-20A-30A-MPPT-Solar-Panel-Battery-Regulator-Charge-Controller-GL-/251534836092?pt=AU_Solar&var=&hash=item3a90a5017c

Cuppa
28th January 2015, 08:53 AM
FYI I can now get my batteries to 14.4v so very happy with that,
so with that result I recommend to 20amp solar controller used

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-24V-5-10A-15-20A-30A-MPPT-Solar-Panel-Battery-Regulator-Charge-Controller-GL-/251534836092?pt=AU_Solar&var=&hash=item3a90a5017c (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/705-53470-19255-0/1?campid=5336709507&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F705-53470-19255-0%2F1%3Fcampid%3D5336709507%26amp%3Btoolid%3D10001 %26amp%3Bmpre%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com.au %252Fitm%252F12V-24V-5-10A-15-20A-30A-MPPT-Solar-Panel-Battery-Regulator-Charge-Controller-GL-%252F251534836092%253Fpt%253DAU_Solar%2526amp%253B var%253D%2526amp%253Bhash%253Ditem3a90a5017c)

TD if you choose to believe that that regulator actually is what it says it is that is up to you. Folks may not need bells & whistles in their solar regs, but this one will be analogous to using a hammer & chisel to tighten up the bolts on your motor! With all that you spend on your car I can’t believe that you’ve been such a cheapskate when it came to buying a regulator!

threedogs
28th January 2015, 09:42 AM
its doing whats its supposed to do cant beat that.
All I want is for it to top up my battery box if it needs it
My battery use ATM is confined to weekends up the Murray
or where ever I choose to go.
So far I've not needed to top up any battery on any trip.
I rarely take the solar panel[s] for that reason.
As I say to others It suits my needs it may not suit you lol
These panel top my batteries at home BTW not out bush

megatexture
28th January 2015, 09:43 AM
I was thinking of putting my Redarc Solar Regulator in a similar Project Box with a clear Lid however I am concerned that it will get quite Hot inside the Box.

Does anyone have any ideas about the Heat

PS
Just checked the Manual for the Redarc Regulator and it operates up to 55 Degrees C and then swithes itself off.

My box has two latches and hinges on it so its only closed when it has to be but your reg should be at the batteries so it's not hard to keep it in the shade

threedogs
28th January 2015, 11:28 AM
My box has two latches and hinges on it so its only closed when it has to be but your reg should be at the batteries so it's not hard to keep it in the shade

Would it in your opinion get hot enough to warrant running a small fan powered by the solar side of things into the box.
Like a computer fan

megatexture
28th January 2015, 11:45 AM
I don't see the point in getting a box then cutting a hole in it for a fan, it's no longer water/ dust proof then.
I've put mine in the box to protect it from salt spray, sand and rain if we go camping without the trailer on the beach.

If your worried about the heat maybe throw a thermometer in there when its charging the batt and see what temps it reaches in the shade. Could mounting the reg in a cast alloy box with a Perspex window on the front dissipate the heat faster possibly

the evil twin
28th January 2015, 07:13 PM
FYI I can now get my batteries to 14.4v so very happy with that,
so with that result I recommend to 20amp solar controller used

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-24V-5-10A-15-20A-30A-MPPT-Solar-Panel-Battery-Regulator-Charge-Controller-GL-/251534836092?pt=AU_Solar&var=&hash=item3a90a5017c

If they are floating at 14.4 that isn't good, Cobber.

If they are absorbing at 14.4 then dropping to 13.2 ish float charge then that is fine.

threedogs
29th January 2015, 11:06 AM
as soon as i took them off they went to 13.2v
So to me thats doing it job.
Did some reading where it wasnt good to have it at 14.4 for too long

Cuppa
29th January 2015, 01:27 PM
as soon as i took them off they went to 13.2v
So to me thats doing it job.
Did some reading where it wasnt good to have it at 14.4 for too long

As long as you’re happy ........... however it is incorrect to say that it is doing it’s job, it’s not. It’s only doing part of it’s job. What you have read is correct.

It should drop into float mode once it gets up to 14.4v & has held it there for a set time, & that doesn’t sound like it’s happening. If you were to forget to disconnect your battery it would kill it by overcharging, or worse it could kill you. Unlikely, but possible. If it’s a wet battery it could boil it dry. If it’s an AGM you could end up with thermal runaway.

From: http://www.bdbatteries.com/lifelinebatterysafety.php

Thermal RunawayThermal runaway is a condition in which the battery temperature increases rapidly resulting in extreme overheating of the battery. Under rare conditions, the battery can melt, catch on fire, or even explode. Thermal runaway can only occur if the battery is at high ambient temperature and/or the charging voltage is set too high. As the battery accepts current, its internal temperature rises. The rise in temperature reduces the battery impedance, causing it to accept more current. The higher current further heats the battery, and so on, causing the battery temperature to “runaway”. An upper limit will eventually be reached when the electrolyte starts to boil, but once the electrolyte has boiled away, the temperature can climb even further to the point of plastic meltdown and possible fire.