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View Full Version : Winch drum getting hot just winding rope in and out



mudski
13th October 2014, 10:31 AM
I just fixed the motor on my TJM winch a while ago. I also cleaned and re greased the gears too. First regrease, I used a super tacky grease, didn't use a lot but I couldn't even turn the drum by hand. So I cleaned it out and then used a water proof wheel bearing grease. Still tacky but no way near as much as the Super Red. I could turn the drum but it was fairly hard to do. I put it all together and back in the car, the motor now works great but I did notice the drum got quite hot, not just warm but quite hot, just spooling the rope in and out with no load.
Plus pulling the rope off the drum in free spool was a bit of a task too. I'm thinking the grease I used is still too tacky. Drew suggested using LMM, I know that would make it move easier, but I wanted something water proof and water had been in the gear housing and just started to rust the inside of the housing where the outer gear hub slides in and out when engaging and disengaging.

Should I leave it or pull it out again?

Cheers.

bigguwesty
13th October 2014, 10:37 AM
Does yours have a drum brake??
But yea it's amazing how much heat grease can produce.
I'd say either try less grease or thinker again

NP99
13th October 2014, 11:09 AM
What about boat wheel bearing grease?

mudski
13th October 2014, 12:51 PM
Does yours have a drum brake??
But yea it's amazing how much heat grease can produce.
I'd say either try less grease or thinker again
No drum brake... well not that I could see in the drum when it apart. The winch is probably 10 years old.

What about boat wheel bearing grease?

Is that thinner that normal wheel bearing grease?

NP99
13th October 2014, 12:53 PM
Not sure, but it's water proof.

sooty_10
13th October 2014, 01:43 PM
I'd be double checking your brake setup on it, if it is a TJM low mount winch it will most likely have some form of drum brake. Is it possible the rope is spooled on the opposite way? So when you are winching in it is actually fighting against the brake, generating all the heat.

threedogs
13th October 2014, 01:48 PM
@ Mudski if you take it out again yell out I'll get Glenn at Coburg to have a look at it

MudRunnerTD
13th October 2014, 02:24 PM
I would be very surprised if there was no drum brake. It is internal of the drum centre and pushes out like a drum brake when winching out. Fundamentally this is how a LowMount works. In the old days with wire rope the heat was not an issue.

As Sooty stated my first thought was it's spooled backwards. Very easy to do and difficult to determine without bench testing once fitted and configured.

Take the winch off again and check the rotation.

I also stripped my winch off again after having the same free spool trouble and cleaned out the new grease and replaced with LMM for a much better result.

On free spool there is NO heat generation. The only time your winch will get hot is if the internal drum brake is engaging. When winching IN your drum brake will only grab when you stop winching so only a little friction heat.

Take it off and have another look. Or bring it to my place some time and we can have a look at it mate. Be prepared to strip it off in the driveway though ��

Drewboyaus
13th October 2014, 02:32 PM
^^^ what Daz and Sooty said mate. Definitely you'll have a brake in the drum and I would check the direction of rotation. I made the same mistake when I put mine back together and was spooling out against the brake......got very farking hot!
It's good practice, especially with rope to only freespool the rope out as the heat will damage the rope over time. I use wire ATM so don't care as much.
Shoulda got that LMM I recommended! LOL

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mudski
13th October 2014, 02:54 PM
Thanks guys. The only reason for not using lmm was because its not waterproof. That stuff washes out pretty easy with water... I know the friction rating is lower but water is a killer if it gets it and sits too long.
As for the brake. I just remembered my winch is mounted upside down. So my control box fits ontop of the motor and under the bull bar. But should that matter? As when I hit the wind in button it still winds in the same way regardless. Being upside down or not the electrical side of things remains the same.
Ill remove the winch and check the brake if I can. It may be seized...
Free spooling the rope out was a bit of a task too. So it could just be the brake.

mudski
13th October 2014, 04:05 PM
Just looking at the winch still on now before I remove it. In free spool I can now move the drum with a little force. Where as before when I first put it back together, it was quite hard. Maybe the grease has settled more now. I think I will pull it out again and check the brake though. Not that I know what to check for in the brake.
Also the direction I have been winding the rope on is still correct according to the arrow on the winch. Even though its upside down.

Bloodyaussie
13th October 2014, 04:15 PM
When I have rebuilt my winches (about 4 times now ) I have used Lmm and never had a problem.

Just wonder if the grease you are using is creating far too much resistance? When one of my winches grease turned into thick molasses and was hard to turn by hand it got very hot under winching.

mudski
13th October 2014, 04:35 PM
Just pull it apart and removed the brake assembly. Quite rusted inside and I take it the three brake pads are supposed to spin inside the drum? They are filthy with rust on them from the inside of the drum.
I think I will just clean the gears out, again and use lmm, I dont realy want to but it will just have to be I suppose.
Bloody hell i just spotted the lhs axle seal is leaking too!

MudRunnerTD
13th October 2014, 04:51 PM
Yeah when I rebuilt mine on the GUIV it looked spotless on the outside and basically brand new but the inside was a different story. Rebuilding a winch it needs to be fully stripped. All good.

Clean out the inside of the drum too just with some emery paper.

Clean it all up and use LMM. Get to know the winch, seal it up, fit a breather hose set highto the gear box and the motor and digit it. Be prepared to strip your winch for a maintenance service once a year or after a big water trip and your all set Mark.

mudski
13th October 2014, 05:01 PM
Just need to figure out the best way of cleaning inside the drum. She filthy in there and my fingers are not long enough and the wire brush is useless. I need a small wire well with an extension. I think a trip to Bunnings will sort that out...
Btw is this part supposed to move in two parts? The inside is stuck on the cone. It looks like its supposed to together but just want to make sure...
Bloody MC keeps crashing....

mudski
13th October 2014, 05:08 PM
Hopefully it works now....

Alitis007
13th October 2014, 05:25 PM
Why are you guys using LMM grease out of curiosity ??? That grease is usually used in ball joints,cv's/ uni's or areas that are slow moving and are under an extreme pressure like earth moving equipment buckets. HTB or other types of hight temp bearing grease won't break down to oil like the LMM will ??

mudski
13th October 2014, 05:29 PM
Those were my thoughts too George but it seems thats what they use...

Alitis007
13th October 2014, 05:35 PM
Yeah but why?? Just you use something doesn't make it a standard for everyone else, personally i need more of a reason to justify why its being used

Drewboyaus
13th October 2014, 06:00 PM
I would have said the gears in the winch are reasonably slow moving and with a Patrol hanging off the end, under a reasonable amount of pressure.
I was originally going to use waterproof marine bearing grease but changed my mind when I got to Repco....
The temperature in the gearbox shouldn't be super high (at least on mine) as the line speed ain't that quick. Most of the heat will be in the motor and the drum (potentially).

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mudski
13th October 2014, 06:33 PM
Wheel bearing grease I used is lithium complex. So it has the same properties as lmm but its waterproof. Both are extreme pressure greases, which is whats needed, but is tackier than lmm which may be the drawback in using such greasr in this situation.

MudRunnerTD
13th October 2014, 07:33 PM
Why are you guys using LMM grease out of curiosity ??? That grease is usually used in ball joints,cv's/ uni's or areas that are slow moving and are under an extreme pressure like earth moving equipment buckets. HTB or other types of hight temp bearing grease won't break down to oil like the LMM will ??

I used HTB originally but I was very surprised at how bound up the free spool became, did not function at all! I stripped it out and cleaned it all up and went to LMM and it works as it should.

As Drew states its a slow speed environment.

That part you posted mark is the Cam and is what engages the brake and sold slide freely along the centre shaft.

megatexture
13th October 2014, 07:44 PM
I used a marine trailer htb in mine from memory it was blue in colour and it was a bit more stiff but manageable

mudski
13th October 2014, 10:51 PM
I used HTB originally but I was very surprised at how bound up the free spool became, did not function at all! I stripped it out and cleaned it all up and went to LMM and it works as it should.

As Drew states its a slow speed environment.

That part you posted mark is the Cam and is what engages the brake and sold slide freely along the centre shaft.

That cam Darren, see in the pic it is two pieces. The centre section is in the tapered cone. The two are stuck together. I take it they are pressed together? And not supposed to come apart.
As for the grease. I am in two minds. The lmm will make it move a bit more freely, but has no water resistance. The brake on this was badly choked with dirt and rust. I might put it back together and see how it runs.

Stupid question. What will the breather achieve? The winch isn't totally water proof so water is going to get in regardless.

MudRunnerTD
13th October 2014, 11:06 PM
You should be able to seal it p pretty well mate. I was able to seal up the gear box and motor and put a breather into both. If you can seal it then the LMM issue is not that it a deal mate.

Drewboyaus
13th October 2014, 11:26 PM
You should be able to seal it p pretty well mate. I was able to seal up the gear box and motor and put a breather into both. If you can seal it then the LMM issue is not that it a deal mate.

x2 Mark. Silicone is your friend. Mine is sealed up nice and watertight and I added the breathers so should get fugg-all water ingress.

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mudski
13th October 2014, 11:34 PM
x2 Mark. Silicone is your friend. Mine is sealed up nice and watertight and I added the breathers so should get fugg-all water ingress.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Water will still get in where the drum meets the gear housing and motor. Theres only a Nylon sealing ring to stop the water getting through which sits in the housing. Well on my TJM thats how it is. Its all siliconed up too.
Whats the breather going to achieve anyway? Slow moving gears wouldn't produce enough vacuum to worry about it I would assume.

Drewboyaus
13th October 2014, 11:42 PM
It's for heat. When the hot winch hits cold high country water you have more likelihood of water ingress without a breather.....just like your diffs.

But if you don't want to use the LMM, don't. Go with what you want to use.....

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mudski
13th October 2014, 11:54 PM
It's for heat. When the hot winch hits cold high country water you have more likelihood of water ingress without a breather.....just like your diffs.

But if you don't want to use the LMM, don't. Go with what you want to use.....

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Yeah good explanation mate. Thanks. Still stewing over the grease though. :0

menace 2
14th October 2014, 01:07 PM
cant you vacuum them once sealed like you would for anything else with a small compressor ?

mudski
15th October 2014, 02:20 PM
cant you vacuum them once sealed like you would for anything else with a small compressor ?

Yeah some will pressurize the winch via a compressor....
It all back together and I have left the grease that I used in there. Will see how it goes. The three brake pads where pretty well putrid, covered in rust and dirt. The drum is spotless now and its all back together.
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50394&stc=1
New boots on the leads and its set to go back in. Again...

Alitis007
15th October 2014, 02:54 PM
Where did you get the boots from Mark?? I have a winch i'm going to rebuild (actually 3 to make 1 - waiting on the third one tho lol) abd need to accumulate some bits and pieces like that

MudRunnerTD
15th October 2014, 04:19 PM
Where did you get the boots from Mark?? I have a winch i'm going to rebuild (actually 3 to make 1 - waiting on the third one tho lol) abd need to accumulate some bits and pieces like that

eBay is your friend

threedogs
15th October 2014, 04:35 PM
@ Mark have you got a sleeve over the first layer of rope on the drum,
Dyneema and heat are not the best of friends

mudski
15th October 2014, 04:42 PM
Where did you get the boots from Mark?? I have a winch i'm going to rebuild (actually 3 to make 1 - waiting on the third one tho lol) abd need to accumulate some bits and pieces like that

Yeah I know this bloke who has an eBay store and sells them. Lol

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Winch-Terminal-boot-x-3-Suit-Warn-TJM-Runva-Warn-2090-Etc-/231354925746?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35ddd402b2

mudski
15th October 2014, 04:45 PM
@ Mark have you got a sleeve over the first layer of rope on the drum,
Dyneema and heat are not the best of friends

Yeah I do John. I reckon it would be better to cover the drum centre with exhaust wrap. But I can't as when the rope is wound on its just touching the two bars that run from left to right. I have made up a template to fabricate an extension bracket to move the bars out an inch, then I'll have room. Just gotta find time to make the brackets.

threedogs
15th October 2014, 04:56 PM
yell out I'll laser cut a heap as been meaning to do it for a while

Alitis007
15th October 2014, 05:54 PM
Yeah I know this bloke who has an eBay store and sells them. Lol http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Winch-Terminal-boot-x-3-Suit-Warn-TJM-Runva-Warn-2090-Etc-/231354925746?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35ddd402b2 yeah i think i know the bloke, he's got a well set up GU thats never seen dirt........

I'll be in touch :)

threedogs
15th October 2014, 05:56 PM
yeah i think i know the bloke, he's got a well set up GU thats never seen dirt........

I'll be in touch :)


oooooooh that's deep lol

mudski
15th October 2014, 06:23 PM
yeah i think i know the bloke, he's got a well set up GU thats never seen dirt........

I'll be in touch :)

Fecking smart arse!!!! Its a PIA to clean thats why it don't see dirt. LOL. Soon. Hopefully soon I will have some free time.

mudski
15th October 2014, 06:27 PM
yell out I'll laser cut a heap as been meaning to do it for a while

I will hand make the first one to get it right. I think this is a n issue with a lot of winches. I can't remember the brand, I saw it on 4wd TV when I used to watch it, and that winch had the extended section, but was part of the body.. I do know though that the TJM winch I have you can buy the motor plate and gear plate easily off eBay. So they just use a generic mounting plate.

MudRunnerTD
15th October 2014, 06:31 PM
Yeah I know this bloke who has an eBay store and sells them. Lol

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Winch-Terminal-boot-x-3-Suit-Warn-TJM-Runva-Warn-2090-Etc-/231354925746?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35ddd402b2


Hey mark, what size cable will these boots fit over mate? I don't think they will work with my 70mmsq by will they fit say 35mmsq? Which would be the minimum I would wire up a winch with.

MudRunnerTD
15th October 2014, 06:35 PM
yell out I'll laser cut a heap as been meaning to do it for a while

There is a guy that has just done this in the late month and is selling the kit on eBay. AB and I both bought his kit for our himounts. They are to suit the HiMount but the same logic would apply to low mounts although generally they are already braced at the rear.

Search eBay for the link to the HiMount brace kit. Good kit.

liftlid
15th October 2014, 06:38 PM
Hey mark, what size cable will these boots fit over mate? I don't think they will work with my 70mmsq by will they fit say 35mmsq? Which would be the minimum I would wire up a winch with.

If you can't get the size you want ash down Ingham have different sizes in north geelong

mudski
15th October 2014, 06:43 PM
Hey mark, what size cable will these boots fit over mate? I don't think they will work with my 70mmsq by will they fit say 35mmsq? Which would be the minimum I would wire up a winch with.

Daz. The sizes of the boots are, cable end @ 12mm, terminal end @ approx 15mm and overall length of 70mm. Same size as the Warn boots they are. They suit the stock winch cable I suppose you call it. I tried to get bigger in this style but no joy. It took me months just to find these.

Alitis007
15th October 2014, 06:49 PM
Fecking smart arse!!!! Its a PIA to clean thats why it don't see dirt. LOL. Soon. Hopefully soon I will have some free time.
Mine is just as hard princess but still doesn't stop me !!!!! Hahahaaa

Alitis007
15th October 2014, 06:51 PM
Anyway, i'll speak to you about those boots when i'm ready lol