My soundproofing job on doors.

[sil3nt_dr3ams]

Well I must admit it was a painful boring job. But the results are so unreal. My subs and speakers come alive. Driving down the road the world is outside of your car.

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/97.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/98.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/99.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/100.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/101.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/102.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/103.jpg

http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/104.jpg

The product I used, http://www.spec-net.com.au/press/0310/ecow_100310.htm

An industrial product used on commercial building sites.

The foam is designed to handle moisture, I've left 10mm between the bottom of the sheets to the door 3kg's a front door rear doors a lot less. I sprayed the inside of the doors with contact adhesive to seal the surface as well. Used a neoprene sealant that will with hand up 80c comfortably.

[04OFF]

The only problem is that stuff is for the "inside" of buildings where it is dry, You know that when it rains or you wash your car, it is normal that water travels into the door cavity, the foam will absorb and hold water dirt etc.


BTW, you will also get a much better result, if you dynamat over the huge holes on the "inner" door skin :thumbup:

[sil3nt_dr3ams]

Mate the only problem here is that all the Technical PDF's for this product and the Ten year world wide warranty disagree with your "opinion" The foam has been pacifically designed not to absorb but to reply water and why I left a 10mm cap between the foam and the normal drains.

The polyether foam used in the manufacture of Soundlag products is non-
fibrous, will withstand the effects of moisture (hydrolysis resistant),

Applications

Hydraulic and waste pipes in all locations
Air-conditioning ducting and shrouds
Compressor wraps
Spa motor wraps

[BigRAWesty]

Here's the thread I mentioned in the pm.
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?p=439470

We have found the doing mass dynomat is a waste as you'll see in some of the vids about it, so what you have done there is probably nearly 100%.

Do you plan on doing more than just the doors??

[sil3nt_dr3ams]

Probally just the floor to firewall in the front don't forget my patrol is setup different. Its done wonders for the audio side.

And back to the comment about water flowing thru your doors with all that sand. If you take the time to look at the inside of the door you can see how the water is channeled it runs around the edges. The doors them self feel different structurally they close with a nice thud.

All this happened because I had to fix one of the winders so i said right why I am in there might as do this one door. Went for a drive loved it so much I kept going on them.

[sil3nt_dr3ams]

Hey at the end of the I've been toying with the idea for a few weeks in terms of getting to know the product and it ticks every box except the one where it says may be used on cars. It just made hell of lot more sense to myself to create the sound barrier starting behind door skin itself. I will also be changing the thermal transfer. Same way when you sheet a tin roof you lay insulation with a foil back under the sheet. Be nice if we could have a way of testing but a test that everyone can do so we can get some kind of data not just out there opinion.

[BigRAWesty]

What's the plan for the wall. Going to try that stuff or opt for something thinner??

[04OFF]

Mate the only problem here is that all the Technical PDF's for this product and the Ten year world wide warranty disagree with your "opinion" The foam has been pacifically designed not to absorb but to reply water and why I left a 10mm cap between the foam and the normal drains.



Not sure what info you have, but the tech sheet suggests its just everyday "acoustic foam" sprayed with fire retardent to meet the building code ?

"loaded polymer adhered to acoustic foam with an outer layer of reinforced aluminium foil"


http://www.ecowiseinsulation.com.au/Soundlag%204525C%20Brochure.pdf






We have found the doing mass dynomat is a waste as you'll see in some of the vids about it, so what you have done there is probably nearly 100%.


Dynamat on both the inner skin, and the inside of the outer skin will drastically improve your speaker/sound system acoustics, without getting right into it, its basically turns the door into a sealed enclosure, and makes the speaker enclosure behave more like its made from a dense material (such as wood)


You can test it yourself, (as i have done) do both skins of "one" door only, then fit the exact same speaker in each opposing door, run a mono signal (so both speaker get the same signal), you will hear a decent improvement in low end responce (its well worth doing)

[Winnie]

Do you completely cover the outer skin? When I do my speakers I will go to the effort because I've seen what a difference it makes.

[BigRAWesty]

Dynamat on both the inner skin, and the inside of the outer skin will drastically improve your speaker/sound system acoustics, without getting right into it, its basically turns the door into a sealed enclosure, and makes the speaker enclosure behave more like its made from a dense material (such as wood)


You can test it yourself, (as i have done) do both skins of "one" door only, then fit the exact same speaker in each opposing door, run a mono signal (so both speaker get the same signal), you will hear a decent improvement in low end responce (its well worth doing)

If thats what your going for outta the project then yes, for sure that's the way to go.
But we're trying to achieve sound dampening and reducing outcome its well documented that you only need to cover 25% of the panel you want to apply it to.
Dynamat dampens the panels vibrations not actually reduce the noise itself..
The application or 100% coverage of areas with dynamat has come about from the auto industry, but has been proven that Its not needed to achieve sound dampening..

[04OFF]

Sorry westy, but look at the OP, it does NOT describe what was hoped to be achieved by installing the foam, nor does it mention anything to suggest what you said above "we're trying to achieve sound dampening", so how am i supposed to know that ?

I think everyone will agree, going from the first sentence written, it definitely gives the impression audio acoustics are high on the agenda ?



Well I must admit it was a painful boring job. But the results are so unreal. My subs and speakers come alive. Driving down the road the world is outside of your car.








My suggestion on dynamat to cover the inner door skin holes, is 100% with regard to car audio, and has nothing to do with external sound dampening, or road noise reduction, it is purely about creating a semi sealed enclosure (or speaker box) out of your front doors, along with yes, as you say dampening the panels vibrations, and helps to remove any resonance that is typicaly evident in thin metal boxes (your doors).


Is exactly the same principle as why you "dont" build speaker boxes out of thin metal (like your door skin) and cardboard (your door trim thats sealing the enclosure), and instead, use a rigid dense material (most often this is wood), if the OP has gone as far as he has, a small amount of effort sealing up the internal skin, will have a greater improvement with regard to his speakers, much more than just covering the outer skin alone.

:)

[BigRAWesty]

Yea fair call. All assumptions..
I think that foam will be fine for doors. Sure it's not water proof, but it won't hold water like a sponge. And it being weighted will serve the same cause as dynamat on the outer skin.

[sil3nt_dr3ams]

Sorry westy, but look at the OP, it does NOT describe what was hoped to be achieved by installing the foam, nor does it mention anything to suggest what you said above "we're trying to achieve sound dampening", so how am i supposed to know that ?

I think everyone will agree, going from the first sentence written, it definitely gives the impression audio acoustics are high on the agenda ?










My suggestion on dynamat to cover the inner door skin holes, is 100% with regard to car audio, and has nothing to do with external sound dampening, or road noise reduction, it is purely about creating a semi sealed enclosure (or speaker box) out of your front doors, along with yes, as you say dampening the panels vibrations, and helps to remove any resonance that is typicaly evident in thin metal boxes (your doors).


Is exactly the same principle as why you "dont" build speaker boxes out of thin metal (like your door skin) and cardboard (your door trim thats sealing the enclosure), and instead, use a rigid dense material (most often this is wood), if the OP has gone as far as he has, a small amount of effort sealing up the internal skin, will have a greater improvement with regard to his speakers, much more than just covering the outer skin alone.

:)


Hey mate,

lol lets move on. This entire exercise to some extent we all are covering new ground. I picked this stuff up at work for nothing with no clear intention just I was impressed with it, I spoke to the architect well one of them it was a large shopping center and he loves the stuff. Then westy's thread about same area got me thinking. More and more I looked into it well I just had to give it a go. My sound system in the patrol had a few very simple rules it was not to cost much and was not to take up usable room.

04OFF I'm not sure if your familiar with my other threads but take 5 minutes to flick thru http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?21874-Gq-electrical-install. this is not my first stab at this kind of thing.

I'm not chasing a perfect sound or am I going to keep trying to improve the sound system. It cranks thats all want, this stuff I've just used happin to tick more boxes combination of sound deadening and adding a whole new level of acoustics. Now i'm trying to work out a way to test its performance so i can give you guys some kind of data to compare it to other products.

[04OFF]

Yea fair call. All assumptions..
I think that foam will be fine for doors. Sure it's not water proof, but it won't hold water like a sponge. And it being weighted will serve the same cause as dynamat on the outer skin.

It could be even better than dynamat or many other products for its sound properties im sure, but IMO, it defies logic to use something that could trap water, in a steel area that gets wet often, plus never sees the sun , and has limited air flow.......... it just sounds like the perfect enviroment to encourage corrosion, maybe it wont happen, but personally id not take the risk ?



Hey mate,

04OFF I'm not sure if your familiar with my other threads but take 5 minutes to flick thru http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?21874-Gq-electrical-install. this is not my first stab at this kind of thing.

I'm not chasing a perfect sound or am I going to keep trying to improve the sound system. It cranks thats all want, this stuff I've just used happin to tick more boxes combination of sound deadening and adding a whole new level of acoustics. Now i'm trying to work out a way to test its performance so i can give you guys some kind of data to compare it to other products.


Its all good bud, i think you must have taken offence to my first comment, im sorry if it was not worded in a clear enough manner to make it clear that was not the intention.

I have not read your other thread, ill try take a look tonight thanks, i have a background in building competition car audio systems, plus home cinema installations, i owned a P/A Event hire and installation business for over 6 years, so audio install is something i am passionate about, so i like to do things right.


When i saw your pics of foam in the doors, to be honest, it looked like a rookie mistake, many people are not aware that water travels inside the doors as normal design, i pointed this out as i was sure knowbody who knew water travelled down the doors would put foam there, it was not intended to offend, but more to prevent the misery of finding out your doors start rusting from the inside out in a few years time.


No problem with not chasing perfect sound, many people don't have time or care about it, again, my first post i was pointing out the fact ,that if you seal up those big holes with dynamat (of similar product) the improvement you hear in you door speakers , will be even better again than you have now, as this would be so easy and cheap to do while you are doing all this, i thought this advice may help you get more from your system with little effort and cost.

Again, not intended to offend, just trying to share my experience, ill sleep fine if your stereo does not sound as good as it could, or your doors rust.



As for testing, do you have a db meter available to you ?, id lend you mine but your a bit far away !

[Winnie]

i have a background in building competition car audio systems, plus home cinema installations, i owned a P/A Event hire and installation business for over 6 years, so audio install is something i am passionate about, so i like to do things right.

You might become my best friend soon.....

[04OFF]

You might become my best friend soon.....

Gday "mate" (lol) :D








Mate the only problem here is that all the Technical PDF's for this product and the Ten year world wide warranty disagree with your "opinion" The foam has been pacifically designed not to absorb but to reply water


FYI, i spoke to Ted at Ecowise Insulation Solutions, about SOUNDLAG 4525C Pipe insulation, i was told Soundlag foam is NOT actually designed to repel water at all, and in Teds own words , and i quote.......... "it will suck it up like a sponge !"

I explained i wanted to use it for a Automotive application, and was told It is not recommended for such use ,it is designed for pipework/plumbing, not places where the foam is not exposed directly to the elements.

Please feel free to ring Ted from Ecowise yourself to confirm all this... on (02) 9624 2111 (office) or Teds Mobile 0408 962 401


.

[sil3nt_dr3ams]

The entire inside of the doors have been bombed with a spray-able wax so everything is sealed and waterproof . I'll wait for it to dry over the next few days clean out the holes in the bottom of the door to allow water to drain.

[04OFF]

The entire inside of the doors have been bombed with a spray-able wax so everything is sealed and waterproof . I'll wait for it to dry over the next few days clean out the holes in the bottom of the door to allow water to drain.

So you are saying you sprayed over the foam as well ? Cool, that will help keep water out for sure.

I was thinking perhaps you could even spray some water repellent on the foam (like you may use on suede shoes), its not very expensive ( I thing Big W have it) and would be easy to do, but im not sure how long that stuff lasts, anyway, the wax would last longer regardless.





Please don't take offence to this, im just thinking out loud........



I just wonder if a membrane of wax over the surface of the foam ,would reduce its sound absorption quality ?


As I understand it, the shape or peaks of waffle foam, are designed to slightly deflect sound waves at right angles, so a portion of the sound wave hitting the foam surface, is now directed "across" the surface (and so hits another foam peak and gets absorbed) as apposed to a large flat surface, where a portion of the sound wave may be reflected directly back at the wave source.

I would expect a coating over the foam ,would by nature, reduce the foams ability to absorb sound, as it would reduce penetration of the foam, sound waves would get reflected off the surface of the wax and not absorbed by the foam much at all ?



Fortunately, the sound "blocking" portion of Soundlag (the loaded polymer with an outer layer of reinforced aluminium foil), will still function 100%, and this undoubtedly will do more for your sound dampening requirements than the foam.





I guess what im trying to say is, that if you remove the "effectiveness" of the foam by sealing its surface with another product, then why have foam at all ? :)

[Winnie]

Gday "mate" (lol) :D

What do you think of the paint on bitumen deadener? I'm thinking about doing a few coats in the cargo area floor and wheel arches before I put the drawers in. Are product like dynamat etc completely waterproof? I would hate to have to rip it all out one day if I go swimming. What about the bitumen type paint on the doors (with a little of the dynamat type to cover the holes) to help with audio? Would be so much easier to apply than the stick on stuff. Just like SD I am not after perfect sound just some kickin tunes.

[BigRAWesty]

The dynamat and epdm closed cell foam are 100% water proof. As is the bitumen paint on stuff.
Both are in in the thread I liked to and the source.

By the sounds of it the bitumen paint does a similar job to the dynamat, so is say yes, if your after better audio.
But, you will still get a far amount of outside noise coming in as the thinner rubber / bitty products don't actually deaden the sound, they help stop the panels vibrating..

So that's why you need to add the foam layer of some sort. The foam is what reduces the road noises..

[BigRAWesty]

Have a read threw this one Winnie, there's a bit more info on what each product does..
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?p=439470

[Winnie]

Wouldn't the weight of the bitumen stop the vibrating too?

[threedogs]

Brushable Pitch/bitumen is an old school sound deadener works a treat under your 4x4 , stinks for a while too
4OFF is the man for clear tunes

[04OFF]

What do you think of the paint on bitumen deadener? I'm thinking about doing a few coats in the cargo area floor and wheel arches before I put the drawers in. Are product like dynamat etc completely waterproof? I would hate to have to rip it all out one day if I go swimming. What about the bitumen type paint on the doors (with a little of the dynamat type to cover the holes) to help with audio? Would be so much easier to apply than the stick on stuff. Just like SD I am not after perfect sound just some kickin tunes.



Remember , as i explained before, im talking about improving your "car audio", NOT noise reduction, doing the cargo area will do little to improve your speakers directly, but you may reduce
external noises, which does in turn improve your overall listening experience.


With audio system in mind, you are looking to seal the door/s to make a enclosure, and reduce door panel harmonics and vibrations, so dense and rigid (like a MDF/timber box), is what we are aiming for, dynamat is made for this, personally i don't use the spray/brush on stuff, i never liked how it stays kinda soft and is just messy in general, but i can't comment on whats available now, or how it works, as ive not used it for years.


IMO, dynamat has the huge advantage of a metal backing , its easy to get it thicker, cleaner, easy to apply (no masking), and looks proffessional, and i believe would offer much better acoustic results with regard to your doors, (but have not personally tested the spray stuff in doors)

You can also use a cheaper product called Flashtac (its a roofing product) but its like a cheap version of dynamat, ive tested and used this succesfully in a number of cars (inc one of my own) and of course its also 100% waterproof and a great option (thats what id use if on a budget)


Again, do not confuse what i am saying, the aim in doing your doors, is NOT any sort of noise reduction , in fact it will most likley make more noise (bass)

[Winnie]

Roger that, might look into it some more for some budget stuff, don't wanna go all out on the dynamat, that stuff is expensive haha. Roughly how much do you think I'd need for 2 GQ front doors?

[threedogs]

Bugger all Winnie check Bunnings or local Reece outlet

[BigRAWesty]

Roger that, might look into it some more for some budget stuff, don't wanna go all out on the dynamat, that stuff is expensive haha. Roughly how much do you think I'd need for 2 GQ front doors?

Have a look at the link mate. 4.5m2 for $150.. Heaps cheaper than dynamat, and exactly the same stuff, just no brand name..

[Winnie]

Have a look at the link mate. 4.5m2 for $150.. Heaps cheaper than dynamat, and exactly the same stuff, just no brand name..

Would that do both skins of the GQ door ya reckon?


Sent from my iPad using Motorculture mobile app

[BigRAWesty]

Would that do both skins of the GQ door ya reckon?


Sent from my iPad using Motorculture mobile app

Doors I think are 900x700. So I'd say it would do 3.
But if you do the paint on stuff on the skin and Mat outter you'd be set..

[04OFF]

Roger that, might look into it some more for some budget stuff, don't wanna go all out on the dynamat, that stuff is expensive haha. Roughly how much do you think I'd need for 2 GQ front doors?

One roll of 75mm x 10M (under $40 from bunnings last time i bought it) should be a good starting point , it comes in various widths, but i tend to use 75mm as its easy to manage/cut, you can get layer to bridge the large holes on the internal skin (this adds more rigidity/density, where there is zero door metal at all)


a few tips if you go ahead...


Remove door trim, plus you need to remove the factory plastic water sheet, Spray grease/lube all the catches, window mech, moving parts inside the door (so you hopefully don't need to get in there for a while)

Wipe everywhere inside the door skin with wax and grease remover first (or wherever you intend to stick the stuff )

Cut with a razor blade or sharp knife on a bit of waste board, use a heat gun/hairdryer to heat the panels (or leave car to heat in the sun), and heat each flashtac strip before application (this will make it bond very well)

Start horizontally at the top of the panel, then the next strip overlap about 2mm, this will allow you to get the strips very tight to avoid any vertical bleed out later.



When you do the inner door skin,

Before application ,make sure you look at "lock rods" and opening rods and how they move (rods that move when you pull the handle to open door) you need to make sure these can still move even if you get a bit of tar bleed out over time.

The one easy way, is where you want to overlay rods with your flashtac, just put a piece down in reverse, so the metal backing will make a barrier/slide, and certainly dont install it hard up against any rods so its touching anyway, you can use plasic sleeve or garden hose to the same effect.

Try and seal as much of the door as is realistic, but don't block the drain holes in the bottom of the door.



If you have room to mount the speaker itself on timber/MDF (12mm+ is ideal) this will also help, make the MDF as large as practical (and will fit with the door trim)

Results will vary depending on what speakers you have and how they are driven, but i guarantee you will be happy with the difference, i suggest you do one door first, and test against the "bare" side before you do it, while your testing, knock on the outside of the door you have NOT done with your knucle, then do the same on the flashtac door, then you will hear exactly what i mean about the "wood" effect.

[BigRAWesty]

I'll have to look into this flashtac?

Is it butyl or bitumen based?? I've read most house building items are bitumen based??

[04OFF]

Bitumen.

This is what a roll looks like (48mm x 10M)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BEAR-FLASHTAC-WEATHERPROOFING-TAPE/331053466474?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D11%26meid%3D3020065181978189511%26pid%3D100 011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D2310719 10675%26

[04OFF]

I should add, I installed flashtac in some car doors in the same method as previously mentioned, i inspected inside the same doors over 13 (yes, thirteen) years later, and it was still sweet, it was a dark coloured car that lived outside 24/7 too !

[BigRAWesty]

Ok, not to stir pots but my question has been answered. It is a bitumen based rubber.

But also that stuff works out to be $63 ish/m2.
The butyl mat I bought is $33/m2
Hell even dynamat works out cheaper if you buy it at $200 for 3,5m2..

[04OFF]

Ok, not to stir pots but my question has been answered. It is a bitumen based rubber...

No probs whatsoever bud :D

Flastac is a Bitumen based product with a thin metal backing, i don't know if it has any rubber content, or any more info about the make-up/properties , but i guess you could contact Bear (manufaturer) if you need to know more ?




But also that stuff works out to be $63 ish/m2.
The butyl mat I bought is $33/m2
Hell even dynamat works out cheaper if you buy it at $200 for 3,5m2..


Yeh for sure, like i said, i moved on from car audio into home theatre some time ago, (and since moved on to Pro Audio), the principles are still the same, but obviously prices of things have changed.

Id still concider flashtac myself, as i know it works and have real world tested the product for the application, and coming in strips sure makes installation inside a door cavity easy.


I encourage people to try new products, thats how i learned and discovered some great stuff, if you can get something cheaper you think will work in your doors, go for it, as long as it waterproof of course !

[BigRAWesty]

No probs whatsoever bud :D

Flastac is a Bitumen based product with a thin metal backing, i don't know if it has any rubber content, or any more info about the make-up/properties , but i guess you could contact Bear (manufaturer) if you need to know more ?





Yeh for sure, like i said, i moved on from car audio into home theatre some time ago, (and since moved on to Pro Audio), the principles are still the same, but obviously prices of things have changed.

Id still concider flashtac myself, as i know it works and have real world tested the product for the application, and coming in strips sure makes installation inside a door cavity easy.


I encourage people to try new products, thats how i learned and discovered some great stuff, if you can get something cheaper you think will work in your doors, go for it, as long as it waterproof of course !

Yea it's all rubber, Its the compound that changes. They call it bitumen as its similar to the stuff they build roads with.
It's not actually road with gravel and all.. :D

It's amazing how much difference this foam makes. I wonder if it will aid or hinder sound??
Sure Its adding thickness to the pannel but how much is it absorbing

[04OFF]

Yea it's all rubber, Its the compound that changes. They call it bitumen as its similar to the stuff they build roads with.
It's not actually road with gravel and all.. :D

So your saying i should not re-do my driveway with it then :D (lol)





It's amazing how much difference this foam makes. I wonder if it will aid or hinder sound??
Sure Its adding thickness to the pannel but how much is it absorbing


I think you need to look at what each product does, the dynamat type products "block" or stop sound, the foam type products "absorb" or control sound, two different things.




You can of course obtain good results with foam inside some speaker enclosures, but generally its to make the box "appear" larger to the speaker, the problem is, as i see it, most people put small (6 inch) speakers in car doors, IMO, the standard door enclosure is not sealed properly and so already too big, it almost could be compared to a infinate baffle configuration IMO.


I would suggest the "last thing" your 6 inch speaker needs, is a huge unsealed enclosure, so "if" foam may make this enclosure appear even bigger, i doubt it will make things sound better, as a big a speaker box can make mechanical damping poor, and the sound may lack some definition, also power handling of the speaker may be less, since the infinite baffle type enclosure provides little control over cone excursion (speaker travel/movement).

Think of it llike a car engine with no load, it can free rev very easy, but its easy to go past its limits and do damage, a speaker can, over heat, things start clipping, this destroy amps and speakers all in the one go (ive had it happen)

Just my opinion, every car/speakers are different, so happy to be proved wrong.:smiley_thumbs_up:

[BigRAWesty]

What you say makes sence. I added quilt stuffing to the rear doors to add depth to my 6x9's but am moving them to the middle doors as the draw system blocks the rear doors.
The stuffing a good bass line, but with the Windows in the middle doors this ain't an option.
I'll see how they preform, and the decide if I need extra rubber to seal the door in.

Im hoping the setup I'm doing helps hold sound in, with the alloy film it should do something..

[threedogs]

So Kallen 2 thumbs up on this product??
I'll wait till its all back together and you crank up the tunes.
As 4OFF says its about clear tunes not road noise where ppl get confused

[BigRAWesty]

I'm going for a quieter ride, not audio.
I'll expect some audio gain, but I won't be double skinning it..