Suspension spring rates etc

[Covo71]

Hi everyone,
I was just talking to a bloke in a shop and he has said do not do the suspension if you are allowing for a winch if if I haven't got it yet? He said do it all at the same time or the springs they would use would push the top of the shock. Sounds right in theory but is that actually right? I wanted to do the suspension now then replace the bar that is on it as it is starting to rust out and add the winch. Is it better to buy what I want and install when I have it all? Cheers

[paulyg]

What does he mean "push the top of the shock"? I have never heard of that, I would have thought it just sit a bit high at the front.

[threedogs]

Most would fit all accessories like the heavier ones , dual battery, winch and bullbar, then fit the suspension to suit.

[Covo71]

Hi paulyg, he said with not enough load on it and especially hitting the bush would be pushing it up to hi. Don't know enough about it.
Cheers

[Covo71]

Hi Threedogs, suspension is shot. Needs replacing before anything else. Limited funds so on a needs basis.

[paulyg]

I see what he means but that would probably only happen when the front suspension is completely un loaded like cresting a sand dune at speed or bouncing over something.
could you get the suspension that you want and some second hand front springs to use for now?

[happygu]

Change out the suspension for the new stuff you are after, but go to someone who knows what they are doing.

He is sort of right, but under extreme articulation most shocks will top out anyway - and they do it all the time ..... what he is talking about is that the wrong length shocks for the springs, as with too short a shock every time someone you go over a speedhump in the road, the springs will unload the weight and take the shocks to their limit.


With matched suspension and shocks, the shocks are in the middle of their extension stroke, and it wont be too much of an issue.
With an added winch and dual batteries, etc, it is only going to drop 10mm max. - it ain't going to be hitting the floor.

Mic

[BigRAWesty]

hes right in theory, but the chances are very unlikely.. you need to be launching the thing quite a bit to stuff em..
what you will get is a stiffer ride until such time as the other stuff goes on..

[MudRunnerTD]

Change out the suspension for the new stuff you are after, but go to someone who knows what they are doing.

He is sort of right, but under extreme articulation most shocks will top out anyway - and they do it all the time ..... what he is talking about is that the wrong length shocks for the springs, as with too short a shock every time someone you go over a speedhump in the road, the springs will unload the weight and take the shocks to their limit.


With matched suspension and shocks, the shocks are in the middle of their extension stroke, and it wont be too much of an issue.
With an added winch and dual batteries, etc, it is only going to drop 10mm max. - it ain't going to be hitting the floor.

Mic


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


What he said ^^^

Your mechanic is an idiot. The springs and shocks should be matched for length. The shocks will not "top out"!!! When you put your car on a 2 post hoist and it is lifted off the ground by the sills all 4 shocks "top out" as the car suspension droops.

The only issue you will have is that you might buy a heavier spring in advance of the extra weight of the accessories. A firmer ride should be expected until the parts are fitted but Zero detrimental effect to the suspension components.

Mic is correct, find a new mechanic.

[Covo71]

Hi Mudrunner, Not the normal blokes I talk to. I was just asking him questions because I would rather have a go and do it myself. Pretty basic just a standard 2" lift. This bloke was in a TJM shop I haven't been to before so you if you don't know you can't tell if they are telling you crap. Thanks to everyone for the info, he will obviously not be getting any of my dollars. Cheers

[altech]

Hi Threedogs, suspension is shot. Needs replacing before anything else. Limited funds so on a needs basis.

Hi Covo71, I got this package deal from EBay and it has answered my ? at that time about the extra weight that you need to think about down the line . eg winch , draw unit full of stuff . I got this package due to my "Tax return" lol . but like many can't be spending money on cars , when the family comes first. anyway check it out , I think its a good deal . $590
2 x Raised 50mm Front Australian Made King Coil Springs - Heavy Duty Rated for up to Additional 150kg in Accessories
2 x Raised 50mm Rear Australian Made King Coil Springs - Heavy Duty Rated for up to Additional 300kg in Accessories
4 x Extended Travel 35mm Big Bore Heavy Duty Gas Shock Absorbers. Warranty = Shock absorber: 3 Year 100,000km for passenger cars , King Springs: 2 Year for passenger cars
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281027451383?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[Covo71]

Hey guys, just been to the 4wd show at Eastern Creek. Gonna go and get the Dobinson's. $800 for the springs and shocks. Bull bar and T-Max winch for $1350. so for the price I will suffer and eat baked beans for a couple of weeks and get them now and that will alleviate the problem.

[Drewboyaus]

Hey guys, just been to the 4wd show at Eastern Creek. Gonna go and get the Dobinson's. $800 for the springs and shocks. Bull bar and T-Max winch for $1350. so for the price I will suffer and eat baked beans for a couple of weeks and get them now and that will alleviate the problem.

You'll want to think about what you are putting in the back too.
I put my OME lift in before I had fitted bugger all accessories but worked it out based on what I intended to add over time. It meant the Q drove like a go kart until I fitted up winch, battery etc and in the rear, fridge, drawers cargo barrier, rear bar......
Now it rides exactly as I intended. But You need to work out how much you intend on carrying in accessories and "stuff" and base your spring rates on that.
As others have said, that mechanic is an idiot. Maybe he was thinking he could sell you the burger with the lot!

[Covo71]

Ok, got the springs and shocks and a steering dampener at the end of the week. 2" Dobinson's kit. Now to put them in? Do I need a spring compressor to put in the springs? Is there a specific order to take the existing gear out and put the new stuff in? Is it just as easy as undoing the shocks and putting in the new ones or do you haven't do something else? I know there are probably some saying get someone to do it but everyone who wants to do it has to do there first set some time? I have looked at some spring compressors and they look shonky as? Not sure if they are made to compress heavy duty 4wd springs as none of them seem to have a rating to what they can do? Unless someone has a set they can let me borrow on the nsw south coast?

[rottodiver]

Ok, got the springs and shocks and a steering dampener at the end of the week. 2" Dobinson's kit. Now to put them in? Do I need a spring compressor to put in the springs? Is there a specific order to take the existing gear out and put the new stuff in? Is it just as easy as undoing the shocks and putting in the new ones or do you haven't do something else? I know there are probably some saying get someone to do it but everyone who wants to do it has to do there first set some time? I have looked at some spring compressors and they look shonky as? Not sure if they are made to compress heavy duty 4wd springs as none of them seem to have a rating to what they can do? Unless someone has a set they can let me borrow on the nsw south coast?

Really don't need spring compressors for a 2 inch lift, and they area pain to use if you ask me.... When you undo the shocks on the rear and drop linkages ( I am not a mechanic so I don't know correct terms but you will see them the second you do the and know what I mean) you can lower the diff and the springs will fall out( providing car is high enough on stands) and the front is a little easier but same theory, but they will just fall in and out and just make sure the springs mounts correctly...
Sorry a little vague on terminology but if I can do the suspension anyone can..
Oh if you are using castor correctors you will need to get them pressed in

Scotty

[happygu]

Really don't need spring compressors for a 2 inch lift, and they area pain to use if you ask me.... When you undo the shocks on the rear and drop linkages ( I am not a mechanic so I don't know correct terms but you will see them the second you do the and know what I mean) you can lower the diff and the springs will fall out( providing car is high enough on stands) and the front is a little easier but same theory, but they will just fall in and out and just make sure the springs mounts correctly...
Sorry a little vague on terminology but if I can do the suspension anyone can..
Oh if you are using castor correctors you will need to get them pressed in

Scotty

Rotto and Covo,

I have always found the rears to be a little easier doing it at home in the driveway, as the arms will freely articulate a little more, and the springs basically drop out. With the fronts, you have to get the spring over the spring seat on the diff, which can be a little tricky if you want to keep all your fingers intact......

The fronts were much easier when I realized I could use a jack on the corner I was working on to release the spring pressure.

Mic

[Covo71]

How do you mean using the jack on the corner you are working on?

[happygu]

Covo,

You will need to think safety, safety ....

You will need a method of jacking your car up high enough, so that the diff / wheels are off the ground, and you definitely need a set of safety stands under the car as support, just in case something goes horribly wrong - don't want to hear about a squashed Covo ......

I used my highlift jack, which sounds dangerous, but with the correct safety stands, made it quite safe and quite easy. ( Probably the only time the highlift jack has been useful )

PROCESS :
REARS :
Start by undoing the rear shocks, and remove - keeping all the nuts and washers together. ( these need to be replaced anyway but they are handy when you lose a nut/ washer in the install process )
Then undo your swaybar links and remove - keeping all the nuts, washers and links together ( these need to be replaced anyway )

Important.....undo the brake line bolt that holds the brake distribution tee block to the diff ( at the bottom of the flexible rubber brake line to the diff ), and also release the closest clips that hold the brake line to the diff, and make sure that the block is unclipped from the tag that holds it so it can move freely - I normally push it up, bending the solid lines a little , so I know it is clear and it wont catch. ( Place bolt in a secure location, as it will get reused )

Next undo the diff breather from the top of the diff.

FRONTS:
Start by undoing the front shocks, and remove - keeping all the nuts and washers together. The fronts can tend to be a little harder to get the nuts undone and you can lose a fair bit of time getting these loose - you can also twist off the bottom tag on the pins fairly easily trying to hold them from spinning. Try putting some Penetrene, CRC, or equivalent on the threads and nuts the day before, as well as half an hour before you start

Then undo your swaybar links and remove - keeping all the nuts, washers and links together ( these need to be replaced anyway )

Important ( ONE for no ABS and TWO if you have ABS ), undo the brake line bolt that holds the brake distribution tee block to the diff ( at the bottom of the flexible rubber brake line to the diff ), and also release the closest clips that hold the brake line to the diff, and make sure that the block is unclipped from the tag that holds it so it can move freely - I normally push it up, bending the solid lines a little , so I know it is clear and it wont catch. ( Place bolt in a secure location, as it will get reused )

Next undo the diff breather from the top of the diff.


You are now ready to start the actual spring changeover. Have all your jacks handy, as well as your safety stands, and for additional safety, I would advise having a second person around.

Remove the appropriate wheel rim, but only remove when needed, to keep it all as safe as possible if the car moves on the jacks.

It is a good idea to have a jimmy bar handy, but I learnt the second time that the rear springs pop out real easy and you don't need to lever them out - replace them with the new longer springs as soon as you can after removing the old ones for safety reasons, and remember that the old springs will be shorter than the new ones, so you will need to jack it up a little higher to get the new springs in. Even though you are jacking up the whole of one end of the car at the time, I advise working on one side at a time, so that if the worst happened, it would only be one corner that will drop.

I also learnt that I could place a jack between the diff and the chassis ( with an appropriate block to sit it on ) on the corner I was working on to jack the diff downwards which helped to make it heaps easier to remove the front springs, and it made it so I didn't have to have the vehicle 3 foot off the ground too.

The longer springs go on the drivers side.

Install the new gear, and don't forget to reinstall the brake tee blocks and bolts, and reconnect the diff breathers too .... :)

I hope that this gives you a few pointers.

Mic

[happygu]

How do you mean using the jack on the corner you are working on?

The fronts will tend to droop only so far, but there will still be pressure on the front springs and they will be hard to remove. Placing a jack inbetween the diff and the chassis, allows you to push the corner down more than it naturally drops, which loosens the pressure of the front spring between the top of the tower and the spring seat on the diff.

[Covo71]

Thanks Mic, that is bloody awesome. I will be hooking in first thing in the morning. Got the gear, now get to use it. Seems stupid but feels like a Xmas present. There are blokes shaking there head right now. Haha

[lhurley]

Thanks Mic, that is bloody awesome. I will be hooking in first thing in the morning. Got the gear, now get to use it. Seems stupid but feels like a Xmas present. There are blokes shaking there head right now. Haha

Dont worry mate i was exactly the same as you, as soon as i got all my new kit, i was straight into it that arvo.

[MudRunnerTD]

Covo,

You will need to think safety, safety ....

You will need a method of jacking your car up high enough, so that the diff / wheels are off the ground, and you definitely need a set of safety stands under the car as support, just in case something goes horribly wrong - don't want to hear about a squashed Covo ......

I used my highlift jack, which sounds dangerous, but with the correct safety stands, made it quite safe and quite easy. ( Probably the only time the highlift jack has been useful )

PROCESS :
REARS :
Start by undoing the rear shocks, and remove - keeping all the nuts and washers together. ( these need to be replaced anyway but they are handy when you lose a nut/ washer in the install process )
Then undo your swaybar links and remove - keeping all the nuts, washers and links together ( these need to be replaced anyway )

Important.....undo the brake line bolt that holds the brake distribution tee block to the diff ( at the bottom of the flexible rubber brake line to the diff ), and also release the closest clips that hold the brake line to the diff, and make sure that the block is unclipped from the tag that holds it so it can move freely - I normally push it up, bending the solid lines a little , so I know it is clear and it wont catch. ( Place bolt in a secure location, as it will get reused )

Next undo the diff breather from the top of the diff.

FRONTS:
Start by undoing the front shocks, and remove - keeping all the nuts and washers together. The fronts can tend to be a little harder to get the nuts undone and you can lose a fair bit of time getting these loose - you can also twist off the bottom tag on the pins fairly easily trying to hold them from spinning. Try putting some Penetrene, CRC, or equivalent on the threads and nuts the day before, as well as half an hour before you start

Then undo your swaybar links and remove - keeping all the nuts, washers and links together ( these need to be replaced anyway )

Important ( ONE for no ABS and TWO if you have ABS ), undo the brake line bolt that holds the brake distribution tee block to the diff ( at the bottom of the flexible rubber brake line to the diff ), and also release the closest clips that hold the brake line to the diff, and make sure that the block is unclipped from the tag that holds it so it can move freely - I normally push it up, bending the solid lines a little , so I know it is clear and it wont catch. ( Place bolt in a secure location, as it will get reused )

Next undo the diff breather from the top of the diff.


You are now ready to start the actual spring changeover. Have all your jacks handy, as well as your safety stands, and for additional safety, I would advise having a second person around.

Remove the appropriate wheel rim, but only remove when needed, to keep it all as safe as possible if the car moves on the jacks.

It is a good idea to have a jimmy bar handy, but I learnt the second time that the rear springs pop out real easy and you don't need to lever them out - replace them with the new longer springs as soon as you can after removing the old ones for safety reasons, and remember that the old springs will be shorter than the new ones, so you will need to jack it up a little higher to get the new springs in. Even though you are jacking up the whole of one end of the car at the time, I advise working on one side at a time, so that if the worst happened, it would only be one corner that will drop.

I also learnt that I could place a jack between the diff and the chassis ( with an appropriate block to sit it on ) on the corner I was working on to jack the diff downwards which helped to make it heaps easier to remove the front springs, and it made it so I didn't have to have the vehicle 3 foot off the ground too.

The longer springs go on the drivers side.

Install the new gear, and don't forget to reinstall the brake tee blocks and bolts, and reconnect the diff breathers too .... :)

I hope that this gives you a few pointers.

Mic


Good advice Mic,

the only change i would make to that system would be small. to be honest you dont need to jack the car up under the chassis until the wheels come off the ground. (Thats a Long way).

I would place the jack under the Diff or axle and jack the car up until the wheel is off the ground about an inch or so. Install the Jack stand under the chassis rail and jack the car up until the Jack stand grabs the next slot. Then let the car down on the jack stand. The wheel will touch the ground again.

Repeat this on the other side Chassis rail and now you have a Jack stand under each of the chassis rails and the spring slightly drooping.

If you have 2 jacks then do both sides at once and once the jack stands are in your home and hose.

Once the jack stands are in place jack the diff up until the wheels are slightly off the ground and remove Both wheels. Place the wheels under the car behind the jack stands for further safety.

Remove the brake lines and and Sway bar as Mic mentioned.

Now the easy bit. Let the front diff down on the jacks until the springs fall out, both sides at once. Your car is going no where if the jack stands are in place correctly. Let the jacks all the way down. With the wheels off the diff will near on sit on teh ground. If necessary you could push a side down with your hand or foot to get the spring in, there will be plenty of space. Do both sides. Then Jack the diff up until you can fit the shocks.

Jack the diff up until you can fit the wheels back on. refit all and your done.

I have done a 5" spring without spring compressors with ease using the systems above. Fortunately Mic i have extended Brake lines and dont have to think about them but the rest is simple enough as you have listed. good job mate. Trying to do this with the sway bar connected is a bugger and will do your head it.

Have fun.

[happygu]

Good advice Mic,

the only change i would make to that system would be small. to be honest you dont need to jack the car up under the chassis until the wheels come off the ground. (Thats a Long way).

I would place the jack under the Diff or axle and jack the car up until the wheel is off the ground about an inch or so. Install the Jack stand under the chassis rail and jack the car up until the Jack stand grabs the next slot. Then let the car down on the jack stand. The wheel will touch the ground again.

Repeat this on the other side Chassis rail and now you have a Jack stand under each of the chassis rails and the spring slightly drooping.

If you have 2 jacks then do both sides at once and once the jack stands are in your home and hose.

Once the jack stands are in place jack the diff up until the wheels are slightly off the ground and remove Both wheels. Place the wheels under the car behind the jack stands for further safety.

Remove the brake lines and and Sway bar as Mic mentioned.

Now the easy bit. Let the front diff down on the jacks until the springs fall out, both sides at once. Your car is going no where if the jack stands are in place correctly. Let the jacks all the way down. With the wheels off the diff will near on sit on teh ground. If necessary you could push a side down with your hand or foot to get the spring in, there will be plenty of space. Do both sides. Then Jack the diff up until you can fit the shocks.

Jack the diff up until you can fit the wheels back on. refit all and your done.

I have done a 5" spring without spring compressors with ease using the systems above. Fortunately Mic i have extended Brake lines and dont have to think about them but the rest is simple enough as you have listed. good job mate. Trying to do this with the sway bar connected is a bugger and will do your head it.

Have fun.


Wow Darren - that is great as the lower you lift the car the safer it is, and I will try your method next time.....
I had trouble with the heavy duty 5 inch springs, and trying to lever them out was dangerous to the point where a bouncing released spring could cause injury ...... That is why I lifted mine higher to remove the springs, and I felt it was safer.

First time is always fun though, and it will be interesting to see how Covo goes with it all.

Mic

[Covo71]

What a day. Got the back done, what a nightmare. Getting the bolts off the top of the shockies was terrible. Some ratchet spanners would have been handy. Anyway finished the back and disaster. The bloke from Dobinsons showed me the white tag and said this goes on the drivers side. What I didn't realise was that both springs had white on them but they must have been on different ends in the shrink wrap. Finished the back and it was leaning with the passenger side higher. Could have spit blood at this stage. Had to take it out and change them over. Wasn't watching what I was doing and let the jack down and the sway bar rod got bent 90degrees. Phoned Nissan and they wanted $65 dollars for it so I decided I didn't want to get robbed today so I straightened out as it doesn't look load bearing and it came out straight as. Anyway finished off the back and very happy with it. Started the front, pulled the shocks out un-did everything. Going great and then pulled the springs out and the rubber boots are virtually non existent. 5 o'clock at this stage and have a job interview first thing in the morning so that will have to wait till tomorrow.

[Punderhead]

Sounds like you had a bad run mate. Good luck with the fronts and with the job interview

Cheers

[Covo71]

Thanks Punderhead. Still good to do it myself instead of getting someone else to do it. Had a good day today. Old shocks were clapped out, not even pushing apart at all. Advice from thread is great. Would have really struggled without it.
Cheers everyone.

[happygu]

Well done so far Covo,

It is always harder the first time you do it.

Last time I was done in under 3 and a half hours on my own.... and it was only the front shocks that slowed me down

Mic

[Covo71]

Well all finished this afternoon. Looks great and drives great. Did have a shudder at 105kmh and thought it was the muddies but that is all gone. Old shocks when I took out and compressed didn't push out at all with no load on them. Grew about a 100mm. Sweet. Thanks again to everyone for the advice and tips. I was going to replace the old rusted out bull bar and add a winch but I think I might go the exhaust to give it some more berries given you don't use the winch that much.