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Finly Owner
7th January 2011, 09:08 PM
Comments & Recommendations :

It is also clear from the evidence before me that both Mr Radford and Mr Williams were not aware of the dangers of attaching snatch straps to tow balls when completing recovery operations.

Having considered all the material before me I recommend that the motoring public, particularly those using 4WD vehicles be made aware and reminded of the dangers of using snatch straps in recovery operations. It is important to correctly attach (following the manufacturers recommendations) the recovery strap to a motor vehicle. A standard tow ball or vehicle tie-down point is not designed for this purpose and may result in the strap or a vehicle component detaching from a motor vehicle and striking and seriously injuring or killing a person. Only attach the strap to a vehicle recovery point or device that is suitably rated for use with the strap.

My Thought s on all this and the ongoing debates on our forum about recovery point, gear, and methods are this:

Although this is still open to some interpretation, and debate about what is safe, we need a great forum like this and unite clubs and forums on what is the consensus of WHAT IS SAFE AND WHAT IS NOT! Take away the emotion, the personal opion, the cost, and come up with something that we as a community can agree on, and maybe even get the final decision mandated by our law makers.

Then that will put an end to fitting of illegal devices on 4WD from accessories outlets. And maybe then we can get it taken further and have pressure put on Vehicle Manufactuers to cease suppling unacceptable devices on new 4WDs.

It is about time we used forums like this to take steps to really save lives. I for one believe in people power. How many of you are sick of sending more tragic reminders of how not to recover your mate?

I am not sure how to start a petiton, but I know how to sign one electronically. A petiton must have a genuine cause that offers a change that is of benefit to a large majority. It is offered to local Government for discussion and if passed is on to state government. If it gets passed there it goes to Federal Government where it open for discussion. Unless you can short cut and speak to a Federal Government Member who is not already against recreational vehicles.

I believe we must come a decision NOW, and then ask for input from desirable clubs and forums, no matter what make of 4WD they represent. Advise them of our plan, ask them if they would be interested in passing around our petition.

Obviously 4WD magazines and shows would not help with this as it would be detrimental to their sponsors.

XLR8
8th January 2011, 07:03 PM
Sorry, I've edited my post as when I reread it, it was more of a rant than being constructive.

I agree there needs to be a minimum set of standards for any product labelled for use in vehicle recovery.

I firmly believe there needs to be better education in the safe and proper use of recovery equipment.

Perhaps all of these 4WD shows could have safety segments on correct use of recovery gear and also show the consequences of inccorect use.

DX grunt
8th January 2011, 07:21 PM
I would also like to see the sales people, at point of sales, have a good, thorough knowledge of the product they sell.

There are many sales people who do a fantastic job, and others who don't.

Let's face it, there are a lot of consumers out there (including me initially) who took advice that wasn't totally correct,
and trusted the advice, or found a loansome product on the shelf and 'grabbed it', thinking it was the correct 'everything',
or 'that'll do', not knowing whether it will do the job safely or not.

Then there's the other 4wd'ers that don't take any recovery gear out with them and expect everybody else to use theirs,
and spend hours cleaning it after it was used. What do you do with these people? I wouldn't leave them stranded, but
I'd be pretty peeved off, expecting at least a 'thank you', or at least a donation to cover the cleaning costs.

It's a very tough subject. I tend to agree with both of the comments before mine.

Let's start with training and education of sales staff and consumers.

Take extra care out there and don't compromise safety.

stets
8th January 2011, 07:51 PM
ok, i am all for mandating safety equipment for 4wd's, but how do we do it? there isnt a car manufacturer that will specifically manufacture and include recovery gear for their vehicles.
lets not forget that many of the incidents where injuries occur arent when recovering other 4wd's its from recovering 2wd vehicles that were pushed beyond their capabilities.

mandating involves costs, those costs would have to be paid by us 4wders. who here would be willing to pay for a mandatory 4wd course for the entire family each year (standard refresher course) who here would be willing to pay for your recovery gear to be tested and tagged every 3 months, who here would be willing to buy new recovery gear as stipulated by a law. and finally who here would be wlling to pay for this to be policed?

i know i wouldnt, but i do believe that we should all stick together as a community and support and train and assist by spreading the word and taking fellow young 4wders under our wings and showing them the right way to do things.

Sir Roofy
10th January 2011, 12:58 PM
Totaly agree with you ROSS that point of sale staff should understand there product and advise ,and toSTETS good point in your last colem yes we could assit by spreading the word

cheers roofy

Patrica
10th January 2011, 07:57 PM
Safety should always come first when doing any recoveries or just being a bystander and watching but it's never the case to come to mind first as everyone wants a great position to film or to watch the action.
Everything is a risk out in the real world and we can't really stop accidents but we all can minimise the risk and take our time to assess the situation and to take every precaution that we can so that no one has to witness a tragedy....

DX grunt
10th January 2011, 08:05 PM
Let's face facts. There is no such thing as common sense. People either know something or they don't. Now'days there is no 'in- between.'

Common sense is a skill learnt by ones self experiences and that of learning from that of others - good or otherwise.

I never take things for granted. For the silly question I ask, might be the question the multitude didn't, and want to know the answer.

I'm not for one minute suggesting the young'ns don't know anything. I'm sure they can teach me a thing or two.

I've got 4 boys and I'm learning all the time.


Enough said.

Take care out there.

Ross
DX grunt

Finly Owner
10th January 2011, 10:06 PM
Couldn't agree more Ross.

My Dad told me:
"You are never too old to learn, and, never too young to teach"

Tim

brynk
18th March 2011, 01:40 AM
i think it is encumbent upon the user(s) to know what they are doing, and if they don't, to educate themselves.

we spend a lot of time studying the physics of the shyte, swapping warries, reading, learning, practising... top all that off with the good money that goes into this gear - all this to ensure we get out into the scrub with the right stuff, and not wear a tow-ball in the face.

people who do the right thing will always be around, and there is no shortage of information on the net, in magazines and in the community on all of this - but alas, those who are stupid & lazy will are also around and not going anywhere - so mandate again and once more it will be those doing the righty that will bear the cost of enforcement for those that don't deserve it.

i also add that if someone chooses to recover someone else they should take 5 minutes to explain what's going on if the other person has no idea (evident by the fact that you are using your gear instead of theirs)

r's brynk

Bigrig
18th March 2011, 08:34 AM
i think it is encumbent upon the user(s) to know what they are doing, and if they don't, to educate themselves.

we spend a lot of time studying the physics of the shyte, swapping warries, reading, learning, practising... top all that off with the good money that goes into this gear - all this to ensure we get out into the scrub with the right stuff, and not wear a tow-ball in the face.

people who do the right thing will always be around, and there is no shortage of information on the net, in magazines and in the community on all of this - but alas, those who are stupid & lazy will are also around and not going anywhere - so mandate again and once more it will be those doing the righty that will bear the cost of enforcement for those that don't deserve it.

i also add that if someone chooses to recover someone else they should take 5 minutes to explain what's going on if the other person has no idea (evident by the fact that you are using your gear instead of theirs)

r's brynk

Good call and well said mate!

macca
19th March 2011, 06:17 AM
There are some fantastic arguments put forward here and all have there merits.

Emotional comments need to be left out, Test and Tag every 3 months is scare mongering in my opinion.

The 2wd comment is deflecting the focus, there is little chance of educating a 2WD driver about 4WD issues.

To me common sense does exist, if your not sure about something, slow down or stop and think through what is about to happen.
That way you can eliminate risks to people and vehicles, or at least minimise it.

In saying that nothing beats being shown the correct way to do something then practicing the skills learnt.

In our club you can not drive on a club trip unless you have attended a training day, and you have produced your recovery kit for"scrutineering" to be sure it meets safety standards.

You must have front and rear recovery points.

Boats going off shore (in NSW) have a licence and minimum safety kit that is policed, maybe 4WD vehicles in the bush should have the same, the minimum kit part.

I have no idea how to police it, coppers grab unlicenced bikes around here occasionally but only close to town. Having them pull us up for a safety check is opening a can of worms that I dont want to see.

Being a club member or attending a training course before heading into the bush is possibly a start in the right direction for safety.

We suffer from so many rules and regulations in Australia, we dont need more surely. But if we dont do something it will taken out of our hands and decided by a pocket full of pens with no idea.

Macca

gec
19th March 2011, 11:53 AM
No I think this country is over regulated now, first we tell them we dont want new regulation for bullbars, now we are saying please tell us which snatch strap to buy, no thank you. Maybe stupidity is a form of natural selection.

Bigrig
19th March 2011, 12:50 PM
Where will this all end? When will common sense and self accountability (as per EVERY other product purchase in Australia) prevail. People kill themselves with stupidity and lapse of concentration by sticking a knife into the toaster to get bread out .. so should we regulate the sale of toasters? ensuring everyone who purchases one has an annual registration fee for it and that they have been adequately trained in it's use? God forbid when we start talking of things like bandsaws, and (wait for it), the common house ladder, which in themselves have far higher injury rates attributed to their use on a daily basis than 4WD recovery equipment ... let's regulate them also ...

Yes, I'm on a rant, and nothing and nobody will alter my opinion on this. I love 4WD'ing and for those who've been out with me they would know I am an over the top, loud bloke who loves nothing more than taking the piss out of everything (and drinking a fair bit of piss also!! lol), HOWEVER, those same people would tell you that when it comes to 4WD'ing, I take a safety first approach to everything - not over cautious, just not stupid.

We have little statutes in Australia called ADR's, which generally speaking compared to much of the planet, are some of the strictest on offer in order for them to market and sell their product here (yes, there are loopholes, but I am talking majority for once - not the minority that usually have the loudest voices and the least common sense). There are little organisations called the ACCC, the Dept of Fair Trading, the state based Consumer Protection agencies, Consumer Affairs, etc which are all responsible for the protection of Australian consumers for ALL products and services on offer (we pay for this proliferation of bodies through our taxes people - they aren't provided through love and charity!). We go through the bullbar debate, which is far from over, and then we move on to snatch straps, tow straps, tree protectors, shackles, drag/recover chains, recovery points on the vehicles themselves, lifts, modifications, tyres, engineering, occupant safety, pedestrian safety, and the list goes on and on and on ... well, for me, I want NONE of it regulated.

As per my ridiculous example above, I can purchase any range of "deadly" appliances in this country from some of our major outlets (Bunnings, Mitre10, TrueValue, SuperCheap Auto, Repco, BCF, etc) and the only form of regulation on their distribution is the credit limit on your Visa card ... i.e. if you can afford it, you can have it, and like ALL products sold under the consumer banner, YOU and solely you are responsible for the safe and appropriate usage of that device (as per the little disclaimers on the side of most the cardboard boxes). Why is 4WD'ing any different?? I, me, the fat one am responsible for my purchases (which have already passed ALL those bodies mentioned above just to be able to be sold to me), the way in which I use those purchases, the relevant training involved in the use of those purchases, the safety principles applied to the use of those purchases, and the ongoing reliability of those purchases based on age and date.

Another stupid example to further argue my case - on this and every other motor vehicle forum, there are THOUSANDS if not HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of questions about after market parts to replace swivel hubs, drag links, wheel bearings, brake calipers, engine parts, etc, etc and every single person bar very, very few, attempt to get the most life they can out of those parts with as little expense to themselves as possible. Most of the time, we only look for those parts when the old one has actually failed, so here's a thought, we should have a ntaional regulation (not just the pits that you have to go over in some states - you don't have to do squat in QLD other than pay your rego each year to keep a car on the road) that enforces an annual 456 point check (made up number!) of every piece of critical engine componentry, joints, links, fuel lines, brake lines, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and the car should NOT be allowed back on the road until every fault or perished bush, etc is rectified ... oh, and by the way ... you pay for this - not a free service.

OR alternatively, we can start acting like f#cking Australians (not litigious Americans) and take ownership and accountability for the products we purchase that are freely and readily available in this country because they have been deemed by many so called authorities to be "fit for purpose" and meeting "Australian Design Regulations". Yes, I appreciate this isn't going to change government stance on review of this type of thing (because I say again, they have obviously sorted the homeless situation, the backlog of patients in the health system, our crippled schooling system, our foreign debt, our border defences against boat people, pollution levels from industry, our road infrastucture, etc to have time on their hands to discuss all things 4WD!!) but confronted with outright common sense that applies to just about EVERY other item procured in Australia, where does that leave them other than to say, "you're right, there are regulations in place, there are methods for policing compliance in place, and other than that, there is no more we as a government can do WITHOUT removing the democratic right of every Australian to experience this country at their leisure, in their vehicles, and using products that have already met stringent standards".

I'm sort of sick of it all to be perfectly honest and promise this will be my last rant on the subject - yes there are injuries and deaths caused by using 4WD's and 4WD products every year, and sometimes this is not through stupidity or lack of care - in those cases, it is a tragedy that sometimes genuine accidents do occur. But weigh the argument against the statistics of injury and death caused by other "devices" each year, and the argument speaks for itself - the number one injury in Australia year on year for the last gazillion years is ... wait for it ... cuts!!!! Let's regulate and enforce training (outside of what mummy and daddy taught us) for all sharp instruments that can cause cuts ... I for one am a huge supporter of things like this, as I have seen people using their steak knife at various restaurants I've been too in the past, and can't count the number of times I've thought to myself "geez, someone is going to get hurt here!!" ...

You get my point I'm sure ... rant complete ... some links below for interest and reference.

http://monash.edu/muarc/reports/Other/RACV%204WD%20crash%20involvement%20patterns.pdf

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/accident_statistics_dl4.html

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6324.0

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/4825.0.55.001

An older one - but interesting read - not the comment that even with all the stats (and they are talking of much older 4WD's in this one), that they are still safer than vans, commercial vehicles and small cars, beaten only by large cars and "luxury" sedans ... again, this is prior to ABS, ESC, air bags, etc ...
http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/A/Safety2.html

http://www.austroads.com.au/pdf/TestMethod2/11._4WDs__16Nov_06_.pdf

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rn/2003-04/04rn27.htm

And that'll do for now ... if you made it through my diatribe above then give yourself a pat on the back!! lol

Finly Owner
19th March 2011, 10:50 PM
At no time in this thread did I question regulating the ADR approved gear or such. I was however talking about inferior recovery points offered from the vehicle manufacturer supposedly strong enough to be snatched on. As we know, some of these will not handle being snatched in serious bogs. But how many owners who don't belong to club/forum have been told such. They presume they are going to handle "ANY" recovery. And this is just one point I was trying to make. We as members of forums and clubs can't reach all 4WD owners with this knowledge. So I think someone has to plead to Vehicle manufacturers to fit better recovery points on none at all.

Recovery gear mostly comes with ADR user/operator guides, which is a Stauary requirement in Australia. We can't mkake all people read them. But there is some cheap imported straps out there that came in under the radar, that i would only use as a load restraint.

I would like to see, (dooubt it will ever be) 4WD covered by it's own class on drivers license. To pass you must attend 1 day course educating on basic off road handling, recoveries and equipment,and bitumen driving.

It may seem insulting to those who truly know how to drive their 4B's, but hey think about it, wouldn't you prefer that people learn about the different handling, steering, braking and weight under a contolled learning. I think there are to many rollovers due to inexperience on the bitumen when experiencing weight displacement.

I am not the most experienced 4B owner, but I have learnt to drive MR trucks, I have used an old 4B in Gympie during wet season on muddy roads, driven a lot of sh*t box cars and learnt to deal with their handling problems.
I am open to new ideas, and willing to learn new things from those whom know better. I never believe I am better than I am.

I can see that there are areas that have room for improvement, and anything that saves lives needs investigating. I know this won't stop the IDIOTS, they will always be there, proving to themselves they kNOw better!

brynk
20th March 2011, 01:05 AM
this is an interesting debate & good to read all sides. thanks for the links bigrig, i have always driven larger vehicles as i firmly believe in their higher chance of survivability. the higher centre of gravity in fourbies bothers me a little, but it is the price to pay to get the capabilities.

a quick breeze through the statistics presented, and it seems to me that fatalaties with 4wd's involved are higher than average in the following circumstances - speed, roll over, driveway reversing, and as an occupant in the not-at-fault/other vehicle(s) involved in the collision.

unfortunately recovery-deaths did not feature in any of the studies, but i suspect they are a 'silent minority';

r's bryn
(apologies if this is off topic feel free to move it to a more appropriate spot)

Bigrig
20th March 2011, 09:51 AM
At no time in this thread did I question regulating the ADR approved gear or such. I was however talking about inferior recovery points offered from the vehicle manufacturer supposedly strong enough to be snatched on. As we know, some of these will not handle being snatched in serious bogs. But how many owners who don't belong to club/forum have been told such. They presume they are going to handle "ANY" recovery. And this is just one point I was trying to make. We as members of forums and clubs can't reach all 4WD owners with this knowledge. So I think someone has to plead to Vehicle manufacturers to fit better recovery points on none at all.

Recovery gear mostly comes with ADR user/operator guides, which is a Stauary requirement in Australia. We can't mkake all people read them. But there is some cheap imported straps out there that came in under the radar, that i would only use as a load restraint.

I would like to see, (dooubt it will ever be) 4WD covered by it's own class on drivers license. To pass you must attend 1 day course educating on basic off road handling, recoveries and equipment,and bitumen driving.

It may seem insulting to those who truly know how to drive their 4B's, but hey think about it, wouldn't you prefer that people learn about the different handling, steering, braking and weight under a contolled learning. I think there are to many rollovers due to inexperience on the bitumen when experiencing weight displacement.

I am not the most experienced 4B owner, but I have learnt to drive MR trucks, I have used an old 4B in Gympie during wet season on muddy roads, driven a lot of sh*t box cars and learnt to deal with their handling problems.
I am open to new ideas, and willing to learn new things from those whom know better. I never believe I am better than I am.

I can see that there are areas that have room for improvement, and anything that saves lives needs investigating. I know this won't stop the IDIOTS, they will always be there, proving to themselves they kNOw better!

I am 100% with you on the training/learning aspects mate, and do understand what your saying about OE recovery points (although the are generally not the cause in recovery deaths - it's using towballs, and tie downs and as you state, inferior quality imports) but the vast majority of recovery deaths are caused by poorly maintained and inferior after market equipment - which goes straight back to my point of user accountability. We MUST be accountable for our actions and again, if someone takes the option to buy a snatch strap (as example) from the internet and do this based solely on the cheapest price, then they are a goose, and if that equipment fails, kills someone, and doesn't in fact (once tested) meet ADR's, then that person should be charged with manslaughter (which goes back to my other point that there are means for policing compliance). Unfortunately, since Adam was a boy, there are two general constants in this space - firstly, you get what you pay for, so very generally speaking, if you are one of those people who "bargain hunt" when it comes to potentially life saving equipment, then you won't be missed from the gene pool when it goes to poo (and yes, I know it's often innocents who wear the injury/death). Secondly, once precedent is set regarding policing and compliance, then as a race of beings, we tend to follow suit - that is, whether we like it or not, we are a collective of people who's behaviour is driven by laws, guidelines, and boundaries that have 'policed and enforced compliance'. The sad reality is, if someone were to be charged with a serious crime like manslaughter and sent off to prison under the circumstances I detailed above, then sure as there is sh!t in a cat, half the so called 4wd'ing community would be rushing out to replace their cheap gear with rated gear, or better still (as most don't know how to use it even if it is quality gear), they stop venturing out until they get the appropriate training (certified or otherwise) and equipment. It's like the old saying, no good having the best ingredients if you still don't know how to cook!!

My overall point is there is a myriad of measures, controlling authorities, regulatory bodies, etc out there and we still have people not doing the right thing. Adding even more will just incent stupid and/or ignorant people into finding other ways around them, and worse still, will simply cost all of us more at the end of the day for a bunch of regulations that have no proven evidence of having positive affect.

Am I all for a single, unified national policy on ALL things 4WD? You bet!! But am I also happy that I can in the meantime, whilst the government continues to flounder around the topic, go on my merry way, going where I want (generally), buying whatever gear I want (I buy nothing but recognized name brands etc for recovery gear), when I want, and avoiding at my discretion those individuals that choose not to do the same (my choice)?? Absolutely!!

Finly Owner
22nd March 2011, 01:57 AM
Now I fully agree with that Scott!

Tim

Crowman23
22nd May 2011, 03:52 PM
I think self determination and not regulation is the way to go , (borrowed from stets: hope you dont mind) mandating involves costs, those costs would have to be paid by us 4wders. who here would be willing to pay for a mandatory 4wd course for the entire family each year (standard refresher course) who here would be willing to pay for your recovery gear to be tested and tagged every 3 months, who here would be willing to buy new recovery gear as stipulated by a law. and finally who here would be wlling to pay for this to be policed?

the ferret
22nd May 2011, 04:19 PM
If it saves just ONE life, it's worth it, go for it!!

Finly Owner
22nd May 2011, 07:57 PM
I think self determination and not regulation is the way to go , (borrowed from stets: hope you dont mind) mandating involves costs, those costs would have to be paid by us 4wders. who here would be willing to pay for a mandatory 4wd course for the entire family each year (standard refresher course) who here would be willing to pay for your recovery gear to be tested and tagged every 3 months, who here would be willing to buy new recovery gear as stipulated by a law. and finally who here would be wlling to pay for this to be policed?
My argument to that, is what cost is a life?


Tim

Bigrig
22nd May 2011, 08:00 PM
My argument to that, is what cost is a life?


Tim

Hmmmm ... Hitler? Not much .... the Pope? A little more ... My kids, family and friends? Priceless!!

snicko
25th May 2011, 09:52 AM
You can't mandate against human nature. In everything there are idiots and there are people out to make money (and don't care how) and there are people who care.
I think as a society we need to take responsibility of our own actions.
We expect others to tell us what to do, so when things go wrong we can then blame someone else!!

Like what has already been said there is plenty of info in books, magazines, forums, 4WD Clubs etc.

But in having said all that I have been involved in a recovery, where the guy was not an idiot, the right equipment was used but testosterone took over.

I have done all the above read books, subscribe to a 4WD mag, joined a 4WD club and nearly finished a 4WD Training course through the DTU yet the guy would not listen to what I said as I am of the fairer sex!! No one got hurt (lucky), the car got out (of cause) and he was the man!! (............!)

So how do you mandate against that??


Snicko

Finly Owner
25th May 2011, 08:57 PM
You can't mandate against human nature. In everything there are idiots and there are people out to make money (and don't care how) and there are people who care.
I think as a society we need to take responsibility of our own actions.
We expect others to tell us what to do, so when things go wrong we can then blame someone else!!

Like what has already been said there is plenty of info in books, magazines, forums, 4WD Clubs etc.

But in having said all that I have been involved in a recovery, where the guy was not an idiot, the right equipment was used but testosterone took over.

I have done all the above read books, subscribe to a 4WD mag, joined a 4WD club and nearly finished a 4WD Training course through the DTU yet the guy would not listen to what I said as I am of the fairer sex!! No one got hurt (lucky), the car got out (of cause) and he was the man!! (............!)

So how do you mandate against that??


Snicko
YA DON"T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim

Silver
25th May 2011, 11:48 PM
Comments & Recommendations :

It is also clear from the evidence before me that both Mr Radford and Mr Williams were not aware of the dangers of attaching snatch straps to tow balls when completing recovery operations.

Having considered all the material before me I recommend that the motoring public, particularly those using 4WD vehicles be made aware and reminded of the dangers of using snatch straps in recovery operations. It is important to correctly attach (following the manufacturers recommendations) the recovery strap to a motor vehicle. A standard tow ball or vehicle tie-down point is not designed for this purpose and may result in the strap or a vehicle component detaching from a motor vehicle and striking and seriously injuring or killing a person. Only attach the strap to a vehicle recovery point or device that is suitably rated for use with the strap.

My Thought s on all this and the ongoing debates on our forum about recovery point, gear, and methods are this:

Although this is still open to some interpretation, and debate about what is safe, we need a great forum like this and unite clubs and forums on what is the consensus of WHAT IS SAFE AND WHAT IS NOT! Take away the emotion, the personal opion, the cost, and come up with something that we as a community can agree on, and maybe even get the final decision mandated by our law makers.

Then that will put an end to fitting of illegal devices on 4WD from accessories outlets. And maybe then we can get it taken further and have pressure put on Vehicle Manufactuers to cease suppling unacceptable devices on new 4WDs.

It is about time we used forums like this to take steps to really save lives. I for one believe in people power. How many of you are sick of sending more tragic reminders of how not to recover your mate?

I am not sure how to start a petiton, but I know how to sign one electronically. A petiton must have a genuine cause that offers a change that is of benefit to a large majority. It is offered to local Government for discussion and if passed is on to state government. If it gets passed there it goes to Federal Government where it open for discussion. Unless you can short cut and speak to a Federal Government Member who is not already against recreational vehicles.

I believe we must come a decision NOW, and then ask for input from desirable clubs and forums, no matter what make of 4WD they represent. Advise them of our plan, ask them if they would be interested in passing around our petition.

Obviously 4WD magazines and shows would not help with this as it would be detrimental to their sponsors.

I think that the easiest and cheapest solution to this from an administrative/legalistic point of view would be to ban snatch straps, and therefore I suggest not poking a stick at this particular wasp nest.

I don't think vehicle manufacturers are ever going to be definitive about what is safe and what is not as it is not really in their interests. There are too many variables over which they have no control. Easier for them to say 'Snatch recoveries are not permissable with this vehicle' and then anyone who does so, carries the risk.

On a recent DVD accompanying a national 4wd mag I saw a full si2e 4by snatched while bogged to the chassis in quick sand. It seemed to me that more than the usually prescribed run up and speed were used, but all went well. Perhaps it was all done in accordance with best practice. What sort of message does that send to the uninformed Joe public.

A thought provoking issue you raise Master Finly Owner :-)

Silver
25th May 2011, 11:58 PM
My argument to that, is what cost is a life?


Tim

death and injury are budgetted for all the time - in the construction industry, in the health industry and elsewhere. For business risk to human life is just one more cost to be managed.

snicko
27th May 2011, 05:30 PM
Silver did you put your name on the voting poll??

nowoolies
27th May 2011, 09:33 PM
materials we purchase for recovery need to of be a set standard (make it impossible to purchase any crap)
it would be impossible to regulate what one carrys in a vehicle for recover ect
only people like us here would follow some rules
the average joe blow dont give a flying .................

Silver
3rd June 2011, 01:02 AM
Silver did you put your name on the voting poll??

Can't remember that I voted snicko. Dilema - should I vote now, and risk the integrity of the entire process, or......
Anyhoo, I would have voted self regulation

I would also suggest a good deal of caution in recovering people who don't at least have their own gear - as I suspect they are the ones more likely to sue the pants off a good samaritan if something goes wrong, since they don't understand the risks and/or are too slack to get their own gear.

Silver
3rd June 2011, 01:05 AM
materials we purchase for recovery need to of be a set standard (make it impossible to purchase any crap)
it would be impossible to regulate what one carrys in a vehicle for recover ect
only people like us here would follow some rules
the average joe blow dont give a flying .................

Still love Marvin!

I had in my hot little hand a rated shackle in a major auto chain store in Qld. the thread on the pin was too small to engage the thread in the shackle.

I suppose it may have performed as rated. Or not. Hardly confidence inspiring :-) It is possible to purchase rated crap.

yort
3rd August 2011, 10:10 AM
my 2c worth:devilred:, we already live in an over regulated country now, you can't possibly save every idiot out there( it's natural selection(which our gov frowns on:spammouth:) and should be left to their own stupidity:icon_bonk:) that said, they usually try to take someone else out with them. so you can never underestimate the level they can fall to. hence the need to use your own common sense for your own safety.:jawdrop:

I've said for years now(showing my age now:rolleyes:) that defensive driving should be mandatory when people go for there licence, and there should be a 4WD module incorporated into that course:bigthumbup: education is the key, a combination of regulated and self regulated education would probably be the most effective me thinks.

with regards to sales people they should be trained by the compony that they work for and the industry already has regulations that should cover their legal obligations for duty of care to customers.

just my 2c worth :icon_bonk:

troy

fixer982
3rd August 2011, 10:59 AM
My 4WD Club runs training just like other clubs do, and while much of it is statement of the obvious, there are always gems to be picked up from it. An active bloke in 4WD in SA who runs much of the training here made a film with a number of others on the Snatch Strap recovery and the need for something to damp the flying snatchstrap in the event of a failure. They simulated a failure such as a towball or shackle failure, by attaching to the towing vehicle with multiple loops of rope and attached the other end of the strap to a tree protector around a tree to represent the stuck vehicle.

In front of the tree, they placed a wooden pallet such as bricks are delivered on, and in front of that they placed a thick piece of galvanised tin, about 10 guage in the old numbers. They then simulated the recovery with just a recovery bag such as they sell at ARB, TJM etc, filled with the recommended 15kg of dirt in its pockets astride the snatch strap.

The results were frightening, as the shackle on the towing end went through the tin plate, the pallet and took a big chunk out of the tree. The video was shown at one of our club evenings and it had a sobering effect on everybody there. This is the sort of training stuff that needs to be made widely available, as it showed that even with the right connection points etc, a gear failure could still cause damage. You cannot easily legislate against this, except to mark the gear and enforce only the sale of properly rated stuff.

I guess my point is I agree with much of what has been said, but I think that the most beneficial way to avoid the sort of deaths and injuries we have seen is education and training, and publicising what we all know. You cannot regulate stupidity or macho performance as Snicko has noted, but you can at least remove the "i didn't know" factor. There should be safety documentation with every 4WD sold. It won't necessarily stop problems, but if everyone knew that their gear should be rated, that the vehicle should have proper recovery points and that the book in the glovebox showed them where and where not to attach, we might have made some progress.

At the end of the day, there is some of the "Natural Selection" aspect to all of this, but so long as our 4WD Clubs and Forum members, and their kith and kin are schooled by us, and so long as we take care ourselves, I doubt we can do any more. As a group we should try to get the safety message out there the best we can, but we cannot stop every idiot. These we should just stay clear of, and advise anyone we see to do the same. In motor sport, we used to have the same reckless cowboys show up from time to time and if the scrutineers did not pick up their shortcuts and dangerous behaviour, then occasionally one would fall victim to his own behaviour. That's why they say that "Motor Sport is dangerous" on the tickets. But still the crowds come. I just don't stand too close to the fence.

Sorry. sermon over.

Finly Owner
3rd August 2011, 10:27 PM
Well said Fixer!


Tim

satyx
10th August 2011, 10:49 AM
My 2 cents…

I don’t see gear or equipment quality as the main contributor to the problem, as others have mentioned, its education. As with everything a decision cant be made without the proper information. Without experience and knowledge how are we supposed to select and use gear that is suitable for our needs.

Taking recovery gear as an example, I work in aftermarket sales and sell straps suitable for use with light weight 4bys as well straps suitable for fully loaded cruisers and patrols. Yet over half of my customers select gear based on price. Even with a rating on the packet and my knowledge about the product telling them its not suitable they still select something because its cheap. I have even seen a customer select a flat towing rope to use for “towing my mates ute out of a bog” his words. What can I say to that other then strongly advise against it. There are too many people buying based on price rather then safety. They do this because they don’t know any better.

Somehow educating more people about safety is what’s needed. Mandating recovery gear isn’t the answer, as you still have people using mandated gear incorrectly. Someone mentioned a ladder in an earlier post and it’s a great example, everybody has seen someone use an ADR approved and certified ladder incorrectly. Why would recovery gear be any different.

DeJay
16th January 2012, 07:46 AM
ok, i am all for mandating safety equipment for 4wd's, but how do we do it? there isnt a car manufacturer that will specifically manufacture and include recovery gear for their vehicles.
lets not forget that many of the incidents where injuries occur arent when recovering other 4wd's its from recovering 2wd vehicles that were pushed beyond their capabilities.

mandating involves costs, those costs would have to be paid by us 4wders. who here would be willing to pay for a mandatory 4wd course for the entire family each year (standard refresher course) who here would be willing to pay for your recovery gear to be tested and tagged every 3 months, who here would be willing to buy new recovery gear as stipulated by a law. and finally who here would be wlling to pay for this to be policed?

i know i wouldnt, but i do believe that we should all stick together as a community and support and train and assist by spreading the word and taking fellow young 4wders under our wings and showing them the right way to do things.



With you there ! Having legeslation changed would make a small difference sure, but will never make any REAL impact except on your wallets. I and many others have been down this road for other things and it really is like pushing runny poos up hill in the rain with a rake. We all know enough about that world to know that it only caters to a few who actually listen and care.

It is up to us to educate and police the populace...and thak goodness for that !!! We have no political red tape to get through !! Clubs need to be as accessable as possible and as welcoming as possible ( like this one !!! ) to everyone INCLUDING the wannabees trying to 4wd in their 2wd ( of which I was one untill not too long ago hahah ) !!!!

I do also agree with having products correctly labled WITH proper instructions on the use of those products. Most sales staff are just doing a job and have no interest in what they are selling so trying to educate them is a wate of time too. Again, knowing whhat to buiy and how to use it is something you find out in a club of from an enthusiest. Those of us with the knowledge have the resposibilty of getting it out there.

On that note...thank you all for this invaluable information that will no doubt be saving my life and others !!!

Dr Gary
19th January 2012, 04:31 PM
This forum is specific to Nissan Patrols. But how do we determine the recovery gear to be carried by Nissan X-Trail or (heaven forbid) a RAV 4. One size will not fit all, and the "Toorack Tractors" never get off the black-top, so do they need recovery gear?
Mandates are a good idea until one tries to figure out how it is done.

taslucas
20th January 2012, 05:26 PM
I think nearly all failures have either been a tow ball or a bullbar. I don't think there is any recorded fatalities even from a broken snatch strap(by itself). I don't think there has been any serious injury or death from a hitch receiver failing. My point is that it seems to be bad practices not bad equipment that causes injury or death. The only real exception is under rated shackles. In the coroners reports in the other thread they all seem to point to bad practices which is unfortunate as it the cheapest and maybe easiest to fix.:-(

BillsGU
20th January 2012, 09:54 PM
An interesting topic. I have only two points. Firstly - what is common sense? What is obvious to one person is (due to lack of experience, life skills, etc) not so obvious to another person. That is why people use tow balls as snatch points.

Secondly, many comments througout this topic speak about training and education, which I agree with completely.

And that ponders a question of you all though. How many of you have actually completed a FORMAL and ACCREDITED 4WD course? Some club training would be included - but with most clubs it is "Off road familliarisation Training" rather than an accredited course. Better than nothing - but still not accredited.

taslucas
20th January 2012, 10:02 PM
I suppose there are lots of things in life that we can become experienced or trained in without completing formal education. A test for your drivers licence doesn't teach you how to get up that night hill. All knowledge has to be taught or worked out or experienced for oneself. It just sucks when the experience ends in injury or worse.

BillsGU
22nd January 2012, 12:04 PM
I suppose there are lots of things in life that we can become experienced or trained in without completing formal education. A test for your drivers licence doesn't teach you how to get up that night hill. All knowledge has to be taught or worked out or experienced for oneself. It just sucks when the experience ends in injury or worse.

Thats true. I have been driving off road for more years than I care to count, (and yes I have completed a number of accredited courses). I have come across many people who have claimed to have done likewise and I sometime cringe at their lack of knowledge and at some of the dangerous practices they employ (and more to the point pass on to others). Even on this forum people in all innocence have given dangerous advice to beginners. (Such as in one tread saying its OK to recover a vehicle using the rear hook situated below the doors on Patrols).

Finly Owner
29th January 2012, 01:36 AM
An interesting topic. I have only two points. Firstly - what is common sense? What is obvious to one person is (due to lack of experience, life skills, etc) not so obvious to another person. That is why people use tow balls as snatch points.

Secondly, many comments througout this topic speak about training and education, which I agree with completely.

And that ponders a question of you all though. How many of you have actually completed a FORMAL and ACCREDITED 4WD course? Some club training would be included - but with most clubs it is "Off road familliarisation Training" rather than an accredited course. Better than nothing - but still not accredited.

I have not yet done The DAP course with QNPC but it is a requirement of our club before being allowed to join in on trips of a class 3 or higher. But I have done lot of listening to debates and my investigations into the forces and engineering of designs in recovery points to put myself at rest.


Tim

taslucas
29th January 2012, 09:22 AM
Thats true. I have been driving off road for more years than I care to count, (and yes I have completed a number of accredited courses). I have come across many people who have claimed to have done likewise and I sometime cringe at their lack of knowledge and at some of the dangerous practices they employ (and more to the point pass on to others). Even on this forum people in all innocence have given dangerous advice to beginners. (Such as in one tread saying its OK to recover a vehicle using the rear hook situated below the doors on Patrols).

Yeah I suppose it is up to the more experienced people on the forum to reply to others when they ask questions or mention practices that they've heard of and help to steer us in the right direction.......

BillsGU
29th January 2012, 12:54 PM
I have not yet done The DAP course with QNPC but it is a requirement of our club before being allowed to join in on trips of a class 3 or higher. But I have done lot of listening to debates and my investigations into the forces and engineering of designs in recovery points to put myself at rest.


Tim

A lot of clubs are very responsible in this regard. They make it compulsory for members to receive some sort of training before they can participate in advanced trips. Also to lead a trip - most clubs require the trip leader to have a minimum standard of training.

Turtle_au
7th February 2012, 09:29 PM
here! here! Darwin had it right, let nature weed out the stupid, regetably they often take the innocent with them.