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BigAL.H
28th April 2012, 10:31 AM
Hi, just getting my first patrol shortly and presumed that the bolted on loop on the middle of the rear bumper is a suitable recovery point for towing and snatch recovery as i've read you should never use a tow ball. Am i correct about this ?

Winnie
28th April 2012, 10:35 AM
No mate that is not a rated recovery point so cannot be trusted. In my opinion the best way to go is to put a recovery hitch into your Hayman Reece hitch receiver like this
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Recovery-Hitch-shackle-Nissan-Patrol-MK-MQ-GQ-GU-/110869667353?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d058de19#ht_2239wt_1139

Another way to go is to remove the tow hitch and poke the strap through the hole and then replace the pin.

But you are definitely correct about not using the tow ball as a recovery point, that is the number 1 no-no!

growler2058
28th April 2012, 10:45 AM
Check out this thread Al, but dont use that loop for a snatch whatever ya do mate http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?1984-Recovery-The-Fundamentals

Benno7
28th April 2012, 10:54 AM
The front factory hook can not be trusted either
Fit these to the front
http://www.lukeys4x4.com/products/images/recovery_pointsGUGQ.jpg
and one of these to the rear
http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/04/62.jpg

Silver
28th April 2012, 12:39 PM
Interesting question BigAl.H.

There are a few threads on here that contain a lot of valuable information, and peoples' opinions.

You need a set up that both recoverer and recoveree are happy with, as well as being safe.

For instance, I have fitted the front plates pictured above, despite being personally comfortable with the factory hook at the front of my GQ. No point stressing a potential recoverer who does not thinkg the same as me. Or stressing myself because no one will hook up :-)

I also bought one of those fittings that go into the tow bar receiver, however I have since learned that the general (but not universal) consensus is that the factory tow bar pin is just as good.

Opinions on this might differ, too, but I think that if it is a snatch recovery, the snatch strap should be the weakest link. Better to have a strap fail than have a strap pull a bit of metalwork off a chassis and launch it. Slow and steady and adequate preparation should keep the stresses and strains within sensible levels.

dan&tamspatrol
28th April 2012, 12:43 PM
if that loop at the back of the car is not rated for recovery what is it there for

Winnie
28th April 2012, 12:47 PM
It is suitable for towing or as a tie down point.

Tappa tappa

dan&tamspatrol
28th April 2012, 12:49 PM
ok cheers mate

Benno7
28th April 2012, 08:02 PM
I have seen one of the factory hooks fail (lucky no one was injured) and the dent it put in the steel tray of the ute recovering the Gq was unbelievable.
The problem with the factory hook is it's welded to a plate and where it is welded it cracks then snap's.
It maybe right for a few recovery's but are you willing to risk your life or someone else's life?

AB
28th April 2012, 08:24 PM
Good on you AL for asking though mate. Never know if you didn't ask and now you know and might have saved some damage or a life mate!

Woof
28th April 2012, 08:39 PM
if that loop at the back of the car is not rated for recovery what is it there for

I would not recommend using the loop for anything other than a tie down point, that is my personal opinion.............better to be safe than sorry.

dan&tamspatrol
28th April 2012, 08:42 PM
I would not recommend using the loop for anything other than a tie down point, that is my personal opinion.............better to be safe than sorry.

so is there a rated recovery point at the back at all i dont have towbar

Woof
28th April 2012, 08:49 PM
No there is not as far as I know, well not on my last 2 Patrols.... I would recommend that you purchase a Hayman Reece tow bar, having said that, if you are purchasing the Patrol from a dealer ask them to throw one on your Patrol for free as a condition of sale, never know they may do it for you.

Winnie
28th April 2012, 08:51 PM
I would not recommend using the loop for anything other than a tie down point, that is my personal opinion.............better to be safe than sorry.

My uncle told me he saw an ad for the GQ when it was brand new and it was towing from that hook.

Clunk
28th April 2012, 08:52 PM
so is there a rated recovery point at the back at all i dont have towbar

Unfortunately not mate............ Some one will correct me if I'm wrong but you could attached recovery points to the rear chassis as you would on the front. I've seen guys make a new rear bumper and incorporate recover points......failing that, time for a tow bar...... All options cost a little money but would rather pay out now than pay for it with something else later

Tap Tap Tap with me hammer, saw saw saw with me saw......

Silver
28th April 2012, 08:52 PM
I have seen one of the factory hooks fail (lucky no one was injured) and the dent it put in the steel tray of the ute recovering the Gq was unbelievable.
The problem with the factory hook is it's welded to a plate and where it is welded it cracks then snap's.
It maybe right for a few recovery's but are you willing to risk your life or someone else's life?

Well that's the first reliable eye witness report of the hook separating that I've heard. I've heard of a few straightening - which in a way might be better than a separation.

In any event, I don't have one any more.

dan&tamspatrol
28th April 2012, 08:53 PM
already got the car man looking at getting towbar but there are other things need doing to it first before i get one

cheers

Clunk
28th April 2012, 08:54 PM
My uncle told me he saw an ad for the GQ when it was brand new and it was towing from that hook.

Pretty sure it's ok to tow with the hooks but I wouldn't do a snatch recovery with them

Tap Tap Tap with me hammer, saw saw saw with me saw......

Silver
28th April 2012, 08:55 PM
My uncle told me he saw an ad for the GQ when it was brand new and it was towing from that hook.

yes, there was. There was a TV ad where a GQ towed a car ferry across a river.

Note, 'towed'. Not with a 12tonne snatch strap and several metres of flat out run up :-) Or even a 6 or 8 tonner with the recommended short and steady run up.

Winnie
28th April 2012, 08:58 PM
Yeah that's probably the one.
But as said definitely not a recovery point, but I believe that it is perfectly safe for towing.

the evil twin
28th April 2012, 09:01 PM
if that loop at the back of the car is not rated for recovery what is it there for

It is a recovery point and was addressed as such by Nissan in the past. The animated debate that arises on Forums does so because Nissan have not rated it. The second reason is that many people think "recovery" means a Snatch Strap Recovery

Very, very few manufacturers will supply a rating to a point and certainly Nissan, Toyota, Ford and Iveco (whom I am familiar with to small extent) are ones who pretty much do not. AFAIK they will, at best, sometimes indicate if a point is only suitable for transport tiedown

You can have attachement points and equipment that are perfectly adequate for one type of recovery and unsuitable for another.

You can have recovery points that are approved by organisations or after market manufacturers as well. An example is the approved attachement points and procedures used by Emergency Organisations on their vehicles.

Another example is after market recovery plates such as Benno7 posted. I have them on my vehicle as do many, many others. Sure they are "rated" by the manuf but there is no Aussie or Industry Standard like there is for Shackles and other rigging so what does the rating mean if there is no standard?.

What about the bolts, the point of attachement to the chassis/vehicle and the procedure that will be employed... is it Ok for the tremendous forces of a Snatch recovery... do the users understand sling angle loads and/or mechanical advantages in the rigging... have people assessed the apparent weight of the mired vehicle due to stiction or other factors.

Have I ever or will I ever use "that loop" or the front Tow Hook to assist in manageable loading recovery techniques such as winching or vehicle stabilising, Yes. Have I ever or will I ever use it as a snatch strap attachement point which is an almost unmanageable technique for limiting recovery stresses, Hell No.

Snatch Straps are the most god awful dangerous things we have in our 4X's and also the least understood with no Aust Standard (other than a product Standard) which is were the problem lies.

Yendor
28th April 2012, 09:03 PM
So are the red plates rated recovery points? are they the same ones that are sold in ARB stores?

The ARB sales guy I was talking to said that they are not rated????

edit, I just read ET post above and that answered my question.

the evil twin
28th April 2012, 09:20 PM
So are the red plates rated recovery points? are they the same ones that are sold in ARB stores?

The ARB sales guy I was talking to said that they are not rated????

Hiya Cobber,

Good on ARB for that actually.

You can get them from a whole heap of manuf's. Some will stamp a rating on them most won't. My understanding is that the ones with ratings have been calculated using the steel materials specification and the distance from the hole to the plate edge to arrive at a number... or... they can equally just pluck 'em outa their butt.

There is no Standard so nothing they can be held to anyway. Same as a Snatch strap, if an 8,000 jobbie snaps at 4,000 it is just tough.

But you raise an interestiong question in... So what is the point of replacing an unrated hook with an unrated plate?

Yendor
28th April 2012, 09:42 PM
Hiya Cobber,

Good on ARB for that actually.

You can get them from a whole heap of manuf's. Some will stamp a rating on them most won't. My understanding is that the ones with ratings have been calculated using the steel materials specification and the distance from the hole to the plate edge to arrive at a number... or... they can equally just pluck 'em outa their butt.

There is no Standard so nothing they can be held to anyway. Same as a Snatch strap, if an 8,000 jobbie snaps at 4,000 it is just tough.

But you raise an interestiong question in... So what is the point of replacing an unrated hook with an unrated plate?

Hey ET,

That's a good point.

Even if the hook is unrated, it is still a recovery point as stated by Nissan in the owners handbook.

quote "Use the towing hooks only to free a vehicle stuck in sand, snow, mud, etc"

So what best? fit an unrated aftermarket plate? and what if this fail?....or.....Use the hook as recommended by Nissan? and what if this fails?

Why is this so complicated?

Woof
28th April 2012, 09:47 PM
I would like to thank Big AL for starting this thread, as well all know safety comes first....good on you mate for asking the question

97_gq_lwb
28th April 2012, 09:57 PM
I have seen a gq with a broken recovery hook on the front no idea how it happened but they obviously do break.

dan&tamspatrol
28th April 2012, 09:59 PM
its pretty silly of nissan to build a 4x4 and not clearly specify something this important

Clunk
28th April 2012, 10:01 PM
its pretty silly of nissan to build a 4x4 and not clearly specify something this important

Not really if you think about it........ They can't be held liable or accountable if something tragic happens

Tap Tap Tap with me hammer, saw saw saw with me saw......

dan&tamspatrol
28th April 2012, 10:03 PM
Not really if you think about it........ They can't be held liable or accountable if something tragic happens

Tap Tap Tap with me hammer, saw saw saw with me saw......

yea good point

BigAL.H
28th April 2012, 10:56 PM
Thanks for all the feed back guy's i think i have decided to use a tow bar/Hayman Reece recovery hitch on the rear and fit a recovery plate to the front just in case i ever get in a snatch strap recovery situation and use the rear loop in the middle of the bumper if i just need to tow some one.

2nd thoughts if i have a Hayman Reece recovery hitch i would not need to use the rear loop and may just unbolt it all together.

megatexture
28th April 2012, 11:39 PM
i snapped a stock recovery hook off my hilux when i knocked down a tree 4wheeling in Toowoomba dan (danandtamspatrol)was there and saw the whole thing. and i don’t believe i hit that hard also.
some of the sets are relatively cheep but i would prob fit one on ea side

Silver
29th April 2012, 12:10 AM
Thanks for all the feed back guy's i think i have decided to use a tow bar/Hayman Reece recovery hitch on the rear and fit a recovery plate to the front just in case i ever get in a snatch strap recovery situation and use the rear loop in the middle of the bumper if i just need to tow some one.

2nd thoughts if i have a Hayman Reece recovery hitch i would not need to use the rear loop and may just unbolt it all together.

I'd leave the loop there - if nothing else you can tie a canoe etc on roof bars down to it :-)

If you search back in this forum on recovery you will find a heap of stuff, including other info from ET and others including the use of bridles. Provided it is long enough, a suitably rated webbing strap bridle attached to a recovery point on each chassis rail can be better than just one. If nothing else, it can help keep major loads more even across the chassis. But, it needs to be long enough - a short bridle can make the loads worse. Here is a link where ET talks about bridles http://www.nissanpatrol.com.au/forums/showthread.php?3628-Recovery-Bridles-(Equalising-Straps)-and-understanding-Sling-Loads&highlight=bridle

It really is worth doing a bit of a search to look at existing threads, and also there are some good manuals linked to this site as well. Search on Recovery, Recovery Point, Bridle, Snatch, etc

DX grunt
29th April 2012, 07:06 AM
G’day folks.

Here’s another option for recovery points. This is what I have on DX grunt.

Please, please do not compromise or improvise on safety. If you have to, save up.

Personally, I would not buy second hand recovery gear, but that’s my choice.

There’s been enough threads and advice in signatures about towing/snatching with a towball. Flying towballs do kill, injure and damage!

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af279/DXgrunt/Mods-CBrecoverypointsmpcradle001.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af279/DXgrunt/Mods-CBrecoverypointsmpcradle002.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af279/DXgrunt/BoatHarbourTripprep002.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af279/DXgrunt/BoatHarbourTripprep005.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af279/DXgrunt/BoatHarbourTripprep001.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af279/DXgrunt/DXgruntfrontrecoverypoints001.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af279/DXgrunt/DXgruntfrontrecoverypoints002-1.jpg

I have front recovery points on both sides and use a bridle to distribute the weight evenly when being recovered. Having said that, I've never been recovered using my new equipment. Wayne, where are you and your GQ? PML

Take care out there.

Rossco

dan&tamspatrol
29th April 2012, 09:18 AM
i snapped a stock recovery hook off my hilux when i knocked down a tree 4wheeling in Toowoomba dan (danandtamspatrol)was there and saw the whole thing. and i don’t believe i hit that hard also.
some of the sets are relatively cheep but i would prob fit one on ea side

your right we didnt hit that hard at all

Choicebro
30th April 2012, 12:06 PM
glad this war brought up , cleared my mind.

Finly Owner
30th April 2012, 09:49 PM
Interesting question BigAl.H.

There are a few threads on here that contain a lot of valuable information, and peoples' opinions.

You need a set up that both recoverer and recoveree are happy with, as well as being safe.

For instance, I have fitted the front plates pictured above, despite being personally comfortable with the factory hook at the front of my GQ. No point stressing a potential recoverer who does not thinkg the same as me. Or stressing myself because no one will hook up :-)

I also bought one of those fittings that go into the tow bar receiver, however I have since learned that the general (but not universal) consensus is that the factory tow bar pin is just as good.

Opinions on this might differ, too, but I think that if it is a snatch recovery, the snatch strap should be the weakest link. Better to have a strap fail than have a strap pull a bit of metalwork off a chassis and launch it. Slow and steady and adequate preparation should keep the stresses and strains within sensible levels.I concur!


Tim

Finly Owner
30th April 2012, 10:23 PM
ET, I was thinking along some lines you started on. An after market recovery point is only as good as the bolts used. What rating are the high tensile bolts that are attaching the plates to the chasis. Aren't high tensile made to snap when over loaded? Mild steel will bend. Towbars are Mild steel welded at certain lenghts, angles and points to increase their strength. They are rated to TOW the loads stated. They are not fitted as recovery points( go on, go check). We as offroaders take it for granted that we can slip in that receiver and do a recovery, trust that towbar, and the bolts holding it!

If one of those recovery point plates come off one day, by breaking bolts and go through a rear of a 4WD, or even a Bow shackle that breaks a pin and does the same thing, what will we say then, what advice for recoveries will we give then.

Don't anyone think fo a momemnet it can't or won't happen, because it can and will, because many DIY's don't know the ratings of high tensile bolts. And we as humans become lazy and forget to check our chasis and attachments for cracks, rust, and loose/worn bolts.

I believe broken Factory hooks have been used in a heavy snatch and left unchecked for a long time, resulting in failure when it was needed again. I am no engineer, but, I believe I have a good understanding of metal fatigue, and equipment misuse.


I personally believe, the less metal positively attached to a snatch strap, the less chance of a missile. I believe The pin in the towbar through the snatch strap eye and the strap onto the factory recovery hook with a dampner will perform most recoveries safely. It comes back to appropiate action for each recovery.


Well That's my thoughts Tim

Tank
1st May 2012, 08:46 AM
Some other points to consider are what you are attaching the recovery point to how are you using it. I have seen pictures of several recovery points that have failed not because of the rated hook but because what it was attached to was not suitable for example only bolting to one side of the chaisie instead of right through and using crush tubes to prevent overtightening and deforming the chaisie. I also bedleive that we need to make sure that the method of recovery that is going to be used is the corect one and not just the quick and easy.
I understand that I am new here and these are just my thoughts
P.S plesae forgive my spelling

Finly Owner
1st May 2012, 08:53 PM
Some other points to consider are what you are attaching the recovery point to how are you using it. I have seen pictures of several recovery points that have failed not because of the rated hook but because what it was attached to was not suitable for example only bolting to one side of the chaisie instead of right through and using crush tubes to prevent overtightening and deforming the chaisie. I also bedleive that we need to make sure that the method of recovery that is going to be used is the corect one and not just the quick and easy.
I understand that I am new here and these are just my thoughts
P.S plesae forgive my spelling I agree whole heartedly!


Tim

PS new or not you have the right to express your thoughts here equally.

Clunk
1st May 2012, 09:09 PM
So the best thing to do is not get bogged, or get into a situation where a snatch recovery is required in the first place............. oh or don't be lazy and dig yourself out as much as possible so just a nice easy tow is all that's required ........ or a set of maxtrax or similar.

Tap off!!!!!!!

the evil twin
1st May 2012, 11:01 PM
So the best thing to do is not get bogged, or get into a situation where a snatch recovery is required in the first place............. oh or don't be lazy and dig yourself out as much as possible so just a nice easy tow is all that's required ........ or a set of maxtrax or similar.

Tap off!!!!!!!

... and therein lies most of the problem Clunkster

People have stopped carrying shovels and replaced them with missile launche... oops I mean Snatch Straps

Clunk
1st May 2012, 11:10 PM
... and therein lies most of the problem Clunkster

People have stopped carrying shovels and replaced them with missile launche... oops I mean Snatch Straps

Call me what you will but i reckon we're better off not having them........ IMHO!!!!!!

Tap off!!!!!!!

the evil twin
1st May 2012, 11:52 PM
Call me what you will but i reckon we're better off not having them........ IMHO!!!!!!

Tap off!!!!!!!

I can think of a dozen other Aussie families who would agree with you there :trink13:

Sir Roofy
3rd May 2012, 08:35 PM
ok all good and well ,plates, straps and hooks how do you rate them,as said it may suit your application but not someone elses and the bolts, thats what holds a lot of this gear on does every body use high tensile rated bolts or whats found in the shed ? snatch straps seem dangerous to me i like to use a chain but not reef the other out but take up the slack and then give it the berries or if that fails down comes the shovel

AndyExy
18th May 2012, 05:23 PM
Given the proven potential for grief when recovery points/equipment (and non-recovery points too) fail, why don't the ADRs get updated to include a clause stating that front/rear recovery points, to a certain factor of GVM (say 3x GVM at least), are mandatory for any vehicle to be classified as an off-road vehicle (such as the MC rating on my x-trail)?

Sure a segment of aftermarket suppliers will get hit, but its better them than some poor bugga being hit who is using provided locations that are not up to the task.

There's still many ways and a lack of knowledge out there that will kill and maim people, but its good if at least one factor can be taken out of the equation.

Places like this forum are a VITAL component of the education of 4wd'ers. Been so interesting to read all that you've had to say. Thank you so much.

Finly Owner
18th May 2012, 09:35 PM
Given the proven potential for grief when recovery points/equipment (and non-recovery points too) fail, why don't the ADRs get updated to include a clause stating that front/rear recovery points, to a certain factor of GVM (say 3x GVM at least), are mandatory for any vehicle to be classified as an off-road vehicle (such as the MC rating on my x-trail)?

Sure a segment of aftermarket suppliers will get hit, but its better them than some poor bugga being hit who is using provided locations that are not up to the task.

There's still many ways and a lack of knowledge out there that will kill and maim people, but its good if at least one factor can be taken out of the equation.

Places like this forum are a VITAL component of the education of 4wd'ers. Been so interesting to read all that you've had to say. Thank you so much.


All that is fine, BUT, How much does a Heavy recovery reduce the rating on a now strained recovery point?? All metal is reduced in strength each time it is strained.

Tim

AndyExy
19th May 2012, 12:32 AM
All that is fine, BUT, How much does a Heavy recovery reduce the rating on a now strained recovery point?? All metal is reduced in strength each time it is strained.

Tim



Hmm... I'm tired. Not sure if I'm making sense now. But I wanted to say that I agree with you Tim. A heavy recovery that plastically deforms the recovery point has weakened that recovery point. Even if it hasn't plastically deformed, each recovery takes a toll on the fatigue life.

How do you account for this? I guess that if the right people are trained they can become recovery point inspection centers. If someone has a seemingly heavy recovery, they can take the vehicle in to have the point professionally inspected. If it's plastically deformed, then it needs to be replaced. If it hasn't, then it just gets logged against that point. Some general rules such as inspections after every 10 recoveries, and a recovery point life of say 100, or 200, or 1000 recoveries and then the point must be replaced due to fatigue considerations.

Some ideas for debate. Without debate to shake the tree the apples won't fall off.

Aircraft components often have inspection intervals defined for these very purposes.

I just wish I could fit a rated front recovery point. But then, that's part of the debate. What exactly is 'rated' :)

Sleep time zzzzzzzzz

Les Penrose
3rd September 2012, 04:47 PM
You still need to be careful - even with a recovery hitch - as the cross-member is not that strong without beefing up

threedogs
3rd September 2012, 04:56 PM
Will say it only once, mine are rated to suit the 4x4 eg 4.2 manual 3.5 t
3lt auto 2.5 t
I then get them destruction tested, if I get less than 15t I redesign them.
I make them as strong as possible using KISS method
This is a TOW rating not a LIFTING rating as like SWL, or WWL